People who say God gives us free will are liars.

You will , sooner or later ...

 

Ugh... my arguments have nothing to do with religion!

Called that one, didn't I? (rhetorical)

No, that's a bit misleading. Free will is simply one's ability to make their own decisions, free of certain constraints. Giving someone advice may help to influence their decision, but it could not influence their ability to make that decision (free will).

Well, right here, specifically in this thread, I'm not. I'm only discussion logical concepts. But in general - 'cause I wanna.

 

Thanks, fmw, so I really nailed it in my signature I see.

The other option is for us all to literally be robots and our every action and movement controlled by the Yahweh Entity.

I'm just trying to make sure we all know what this means.

Sometimes the term is used to imply that God gives us freedom or that He is somehow not responsible for making up the rules and doling out the punishments.

I will keep an eye out for people who misuse the term.

 

I think many nonreligious people are surprised by the potential universe that is implied when a concept such a "free will" even exists. It means the religious are picturing a universe where there are human bodies, presumably, but they are all totally controlled by the Yahweh Entity.

Would we still be conscious? Would we be inside our bodies, but unable to control our actions? How would we even know that we are ourselves at all?

To say that "God gives us free will" is redundant. The fact that there is an "us" at all assumes the free will that is required to make us entities in our own right.

I find the concept rather strange. I don't think it's as easy a subject as you say. How does such a thing even get brought up in a discussion?

Oh hey, did you guys hear? We are not all robots controlled by a single Entity without minds of our own.

Christians often use the term to mean something entirely different. If not for that bait and switch tactic, something so freaking obvious wouldn't even have a name. It's obvious we have control over our own bodies. Why would anyone ever need to coin a term to use in a debate for that? Because they are deceitful.

 

Modern marketing firms know that use of the word "free" in advertisements is great for getting the attention of potential customers.

The Church has known this for centuries.

 

It doesn't torture me. I am actively involved in my local church and have benfitted greatly from that association. I would be broke if not for Christianity and Christians. Well, I'd probably find some other group to exploit, but you get the point. Christians don't bother me. I just enjoy talking about these things and to get anyone's attention you've got to call somebody something ugly in the thread title.

Everyone I know and everyone in my family is a Christian! I'd be a mighty sad case if I tortured myself over their existence! I am raising my son to be a Christian! I can see why he believes it, I just can't figure out how the adults can honestly stick with it. I figure many are like me, just putting on a show for their own personal benefit. BUT YOU INTERNET CHRISTIANS! You guys are the REAL DEAL! You REALLY believe it! LOL I can say what's on my mind here. In real life, I say all the same things you do, of course I am nicer about it! But I'm sure you guys are nicer too in real life!

 

Oh I have that same book!

But you're all over the map here.

You ask, "Why would he then continue to deny it?" He didn't. The instant he hears a magical voice, he knows. Nothing to deny. It is what it is. Not up for debate at that point.

Paul says he got his proof. No one else has ever gotten theirs since.

Hey did you hear? We are not all robots controlled by a single entity without minds of our own! What a groundbreaking and useful concept! LOL

 

So it is a useless concept with a misleading name.

Like if I was to develop a concept called "happy freshness" and it referred to the fact that everyone farts.

No need to develop a concept that is already inherently obvious to anyone who would hear it. The fact that there is one with that type of name reeks of deceit.

 

I don't even want to do anything bad. I just don't believe a guy came back from the dead. Heck, I can't even choose that. I can't even make myself believe it. Essentially, I lack the free will to choose to do something that will leave me tortured for all eternity if I don't do it.

It doesn't matter what bad things I do. If I would just believe that some random guy who lived 2000 years ago died and came back from the dead, I'd be all set. So I want to believe that. I pretend like I believe it every day. But I don't really believe it inside.

 

No! I don't believe it is a lack of free will, I believe moreover that it is a lack of courage to stand up to the BS that Theists must endure at the hands of non-theists.

Then you don't believe it. That is your choice. Live with it.

 

I just don't think a person can come back from the dead. I've never encountered another atheist in all my life that I know of. Only on the internet. Everyone I've ever known who has even mentioned religion has been a Christian. I'm in a certain part of the country where that is quite common. It was being outcasted for a time as an atheist that convinced me to "return" to Christianity. I have to pretend to be a Christian to avoid the BS that the theists put atheists through.

You're displaying a very common tendency of Christians. You declare intolerance and persecution when there is none. Most people today are Christians yet the New Testament was written during a time when Christians actually WERE being persecuted. So you've got this threat of persecution woven into your religion and you humorously carry it into present day where you are a majority. Now your idea of persecution is the fact that the U.S. will not institute overtly Christian policies. It's a joke to people like me. But again, I don't care. I openly support overt Christian policies. I have to to continue to make a living.

In fact, I think atheists would be strange people to be around. I couldn't imagine.

 

I can't choose what I believe. My mind makes that decision autonomously. It is based on facts that I know and my reasoning ability which is inescapable.

People die and they are dead. That's a fact. So you say you got this special case here and I say Neato, show me the evidence. And there is none.

I can't help it that I don't believe in some fantastic claim for which there is no evidence because it supposedly happened thousands of years ago.

Frankly, any idiot can see that it probably isn't true. Being open-minded, I will allow that it might be true. But since I can never hold the level belief that is required, I am doomed to suffer.

And it was through no choice of my own.

I choose to pretend to believe it. And that's the only choice a human can possibly make when it comes to belief. I lie everyday saying Christian things. But how can anyone really believe that stuff? Not only is it fantastic. Not only is there zero evidence. Not only were the authors of the NT men of questionable character. But there are proven historical examples that show parts of the Bible being changed to favor the Resurrection maybe a century after it was supposed to have happened. It seems the original Christians did not even believe in a literal Resurrection. I just can't see how any knowledgeable person can really believe that stuff.

Pretend to believe it, sure. You have to to make big bucks in this country. But we are anonymous here. What drives you to entertain such fiction when no one will even know who you are?

 

Of course you are free to say God does not give us free will.

 

a nose that's cold , paws instead of hands , FreeWare wishes a beagle to be .. abra cadabra , zippity doo , FreeWare is now a beagle , his wish has come true...

Hello FreeWare ... fetch boy , fetch .

 

Absolutely love it.

 

I do understand your dilemma. How can one accept something on belief alone? Consider this however...Everything one sees, feels and touches may or may not be what one actually perceives them to be.

This is because our senses are not perfect and our brains have to process the electrical information given to it by our neurons. The brain fills in the missing gaps.

A human being's world is limited to what he/she can actually perceive. For instance, radio telescopes can perceive much more than our eyes alone. Extrapolation of this fact could lead one to the logical conclusion that there are many things we are just not aware of either through our senses or through available detection apparatus. For instance, until we built element accelerators, we had no idea that there were things smaller/different than protons, neutrons and electrons.

As we travel through our lives, we depend on a biological neural matrix to define the world for us. IMO our perception is quite limited therefore, I would not discount belief...

 

But saying God does not give us free will does not prove that God does not give us free will. In order to prove that God does not give us free will, one would first have to prove that there is a price tag on 'will' and ascertain who placed that tag on 'will'.

 

Anyone who has ever had an actual deja vu experience already knows that there are many things we cannot account for and that do not square with what our limited senses and notions of linear time tell us.
That's why atheists are chumps. Anyone that believes the world is limited to whatever he can see or perceive is fooling himself.

 

Well saying unicorns do not live in your attic does not prove they do not (without being flippant).
It's merely a statement of your belief that they do not.

You cannot prove God does NOT give you free will.
You would first have to prove that you are not free to do what you will.

 

I agree except I would change your statement to read that we probably do not experience or perceive MOST things.

IMO Atheists are just as myopic as those who follow highly dogmatic religious sects.

 

My comment to you about four post back ( http://www.politicalforum.com/4481284-post242.html ) was one in which I was agreeing with you while adding emphasis to what you had already stated. I can see now that there has been a cross communication between us. I have no argument against the belief that God gives us free will,,, in fact I support that belief.

 

Perhaps, but this calls for some speculation. My experience of deja vu was a singular isolated thing but it made me aware that life is not all what it seems.

Oh, yes. Absolutely. They are as rigid as steel in their dogma.

 

Oh, very good then. Yes, I agree with you as well then.

 

Except atheists don't say that.

 

All the ones I've come across do.