Abortion- "It is her body!" But is it?

and at no point along that course are any of the developmental stages allowed to injure another person without their consent .. thus ends the issue of whether the fetus is a person or not .. it ends it because it is irrelevant.

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what a complete load of babbling nonsense ... you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

What do you mean, "idiotic"? I clearly explain what I mean with the term and demonstrate it with a nice empirical example; it is true that the woman who wants to be pregnant calls it a "baby", whereas the unwillingly pregnant woman will call it a "fetus". This does not mean that the fetus/baby actually shape-shifts, per definition, but rather in a more contextual and social way. Capice?

 

Pregnancy would be unique if very few people had ever had one....that's not the case.....

 

Finally a nuanced post!

But do we really choose to do these things?

Um. What on Earth is a pro-lifer? And why do you always step in to lick Fox's butt? You do it all the time, it is ridiculous. I believe she is capable of defending herself, are you her lawyer or what?

And, pease do not bring in the terms ofb"pro choice" and "pro life" in here. This is not the Abortion forum.

Perhaps it is not harder than this. Maybe abortion is some kind of "modernised natural selection", a way of sorting out the weak and hindering over-population.

I feel it is rather distasteful to compare a fetus to a violent crime and do not fully get your comparison tbh. Furthermore, the fetus is only an "instigator" when it is an unwanted pregnancy. If it, however, is a wanted one it is a "baby" or even a "miracle".

Consent is super interesting in the question of abortion; has the woman given her consent to the fetus? Biologically speaking, intercourse creates fetuses and consenting to intercourse is consenting to have kids (this is how it works in nature) Assuming the woman was not raped and just wanted sex "for fun" but did not use protection, it could be seen as giving consent to the fetus too.

 

YOUR arms might be dead but mine at both alive...both living flesh....sorry about yours...

 

Such a pro-life thing to say. Eeew.

 

You seem to have control issues which always relates to anti-abortion stance....other's shouldn't use the word "pro-life" but you feel free to....most people against abortion have that issue..

 

no problem.

In the nature of what we understand choice to be then yes we do . .whether that choice is the result of influences we are unaware of remains up for debate.

I am not licking Fox's butt as you put it, I am asking you where you say them say "the fetus is nothing", please don't try to evade what you stated they said, when in reality they said nothing of a sort.

Pro-life and Pro-choice are just simple ways to distinguish between the ideologies that is all.

Maybe .. and maybe it is simply people choosing to exert their control over their own bodies.

Something being distasteful or not doesn't change it's reality, BTW I didn't say it was a violent crime, a crime can only be committed by a person who has the mental ability (mens rea) to understand what it is they do .. that doesn't mean the person who is subjected to the "crime" cannot do all in their power to stop it, and what part of the comparison don't you get?

and that is true for the majority of things, a thief is only a thief if the person they steal from doesn't want to be stolen from .. anything else is a gift
a rapist is only a rapist because they ignore the non-consent of their victim, anything else would be consensual sex.

It is quite simple you cannot give consent to a person who doesn't exist at the time the consent is given, you can give consent to the risk that the person may be created .. but consenting to a risk does not imply consenting to any injuries incurred due to that risk. Every time you step into a car you are giving implied consent to the risk that you may be injured in an accident, however that implied consent in no way abridges your right to receive medical help to alleviate any injuries you may have incurred should an accident happen, in the same way a female may give implied consent to the risk of pregnancy when consenting to sexual intercourse, but that implied consent in no way abridges her right to medical assistance to alleviate any injuries caused by pregnancy.

If, as some people suggest, the fetus is a person from conception then as an independent entity it must gain independent consent for any action (voluntary or involuntary) .. it cannot be assumed that consent to one person (a man) for one action (sex) is consent to another person (the fetus) for another action (pregnancy) ... pregnancy is an action that serves the purpose of the fetus, not the female, and even if the fetus has no intent to harm that does not mean it has free reign to do so.

BTW: I can argue this any way you like .. scientifically, legally and philosophically.

 

And you do not understand sarcasm. Huge issue.

 

It's not always easy to tell Pro-Choice talking points from sarcasm since they're usually so ridiculous anyway...

 

Why are you still here?

 

Too bad I frighten you..........care to discuss the topic or prefer living in fear??

 

Unique compared to other medical conditions, not unique to the individual. The point is that there are special considerations in the context of pregnancy that don't apply to broken legs, flu or heart attacks.

 

Yes, it reflects society. We are no longer in the stone ages where religious men dictate how the world must live.
We have grown and evolved.
There is nothing to move forward.

 

And what would that be?

Don't broken legs get fixed? The flu goes away(but may it some cases require a doctors care). Aren't heart attacks treated ?

 

Until you get the definition of person changed, you have no argument. When the definition of a person is things not yet alive and breathing come back.

 

Good post but only some have grown and evolved

 

What one calls the fetus is irrelevant. By definition, it is the same entity. If we just make up anything we want and proceed as 100% individual with no regard to others, the world would become chaos.
So to live together as people, we have to define things and agree to the terms. Else no one can communicate effectively, again, chaos.

 

BTW, Fugazi never "licks butt" as you so "intelligently" put it...but he regularly kicks it!


(as he did here )

 

Why is that then?

 

Hmm .. so what you are suggesting then is that the unborn a 'special' and should be afforded greater rights than any other born person?

 

Of course, where to draw the line for when life begins is a highly socio-cultural matter; some communities may argue life is constant, some may argue inte begins at conception and others that it begins at birth. Some may even argue sperm is life and therefore male masturbation being murder.

It is of course up to everyone to decide what they want to do with their bodies, but since I have no clear perception of when life begins and how to distinguish a body from a ""none-body" but very clear perception of self-ownership, I find the discussion about abortion very interesting.

One of the, from an American viewpoint, more oxymoronic aspects of the question on abortion is the fact that - no matter if pro choice or pro life - many American mothers/couples decide to slice their baby boys' penises. This contradicts the pro choice stance of "their body, their decision" and the pro life stance of "every life has the right to live without anyone else's interferance. "

But that is for another thread.

 

You are not discussing the topic. You are only burping incoherent waffle that is completely out of place in a discussion about life and self-ownership and only appropriate for the topics in the Abortion-section.

You are only here to, ungroundedly, label strangers as misogynists, pro lifers and fools. Fugazi is doing a great job though. I like him.

 

Yes, broken legs are fixed, flu is usually left to go away and heart attacks treated. Pregnancy isn’t fixed, left to go away or treated. They’re all different situations and they’re all addressed in different ways. You can’t ignore the unique elements to pregnancy. This isn’t an argument for or against abortion, just a statement of cold fact.