"Atheism Produces Evil on Incredible Levels"

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Qchan, Apr 27, 2015.

  1. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    A lot of the stuff you say is pretty questionable. I'm interested in why you don't believe Jesus is God. I mean, if you believe in the Trinity, then you believe that there is only one singular God in three manifestations: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They all work as one person. If you disagree, I'm interested in knowing why.
     
  2. Goomba

    Goomba Well-Known Member

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    Either way, Christianity is paganistic because of this fact.

    Perhaps I should have said popularized. Nevertheless, there is no evidence that this symbol is derived from the supposed notion that God (Allah in Arabic) was a pre-Islamic moon god.

    Sorry, but only Christian apologists believe in this absurd notion.

    1. Muhammad never claimed God "spoke" to him about Islam. Looks like we have another hater criticizing something he knows nothing about.

    2. It's not new at all, but the same religion that began with Abraham, teaching that there is One God, and that people should submit to Him. It's just that some people are butthurt that God chose an Arab for His final revelation.

    And yet you brought the crescent symbol up.

    Anyway, Muslims don't have a god. On the contrary, Muslims submit to the Creator of the universe, whether Christian missionaries like it or not.
     
  3. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The truth I speak of has nothing to do with science. It is outside of thought completely. In fact, thought can never know this truth. For thought cannot ever touch that which is immeasurable, timeless.

    Truth cannot be recognized by the ego, for the ego is a construction of thought, within the realm of thought. If you recognize truth, it cannot be truth, for truth cannot be stored in memory, and thought is the response of memory. Truth is, when thought is not moving, silent. When thought is, Truth is not. Yet Truth can effect thought, while thought can never know truth. Truth cannot be held in memory, not the Truth I am talking about. Truth sets man free, from the slavemaster which is the ego. That is what Truth does. And so Truth saves man.

    Truth is a living thing, living waters, and memory is always dead, of the past, for the past is always dead. The dead cannot embrace the Living. It can only embrace the dead. To want to possess truth is a desire of the ego. But it never is able to do that. For the ego is created of memory, the past, which is dead. Egos are dead things, rooted in memory, thought, the past.
     
  4. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    Well let's look at a few scriptures rather than address my personal opinion. I'm doing this off the top of my head so the scriptures aren't numbered exactly but I can find them if need be.


    Matthew 19 Jesus is confronted by the rich young ruler who says, "good teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? Jesus' answer to him was, "why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

    He's telling you clearly he's not God in that scripture.

    He makes a clear distinction between himself and God time and time and time again.

    A perfect example: John 20:17 I go to my Father in Heaven and your father in heaven. My God and your God.

    God does not have a God.

    And there's another scripture where Jesus explicitly denied being God but I'll leave that one for my next post.

    Jesus is the son of God. But he is the son because he is perfectly obedient to gods will. Not because of his lineage.
     
  5. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    I have to slightly disagree with you, since Jesus has referred himself as God after his resurrection. Revelation 1:8 (NASB) says, "“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”"

    Jesus says it again in Revelation 22:12-13. It says (NASB), "“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”"

    What do you make of that?
     
  6. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    I think we have a fundamental disagreement about scripture. I think the easiest way to address it is for me to state how I come to my understanding of biblical scripture.

    First of all, many people think that the bible is the Word of God. But it's not. The bible is the INSPIRED Word of God. The Word of God is Jesus Christ. I believe the doctrine of Jesus Christ is perfect and without contradiction because he is the very personification of the Word of God.

    Now... The bible can/should be segregated in two groups. You have the Gospels... Matthew, Mark, Luke and John... and then you have the rest of the bible. The rest of the bible is written from the perspective of a man taking what God has revealed to him, interpreting it and then attempting to convey that message on to other people.

    But the Gospels are written as a biography of a man's life. These people were not attempting to interpret Gods message and then give it to you. They were writing a biography of a man's life (or part of it at least). That man was Jesus Christ and his doctrine and his message was perfect because he was the Word of God. He was the only person from Genesis to Revelation whose duty it was to bring the perfect Word of God to man.

    With that being said, I read the bible from the perspective that everything that you see from Jesus in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is perfect and without contradiction. So if what is being taught is in agreement with Jesus' doctrine then it's correct. And anything in the bible (or anywhere else for that matter) that disagrees with or contradicts doctrine from Jesus within the gospels must be incorrect. Hopefully that will shed a little more light on where I'm getting my point of view.

    Now, to address your specific scriptures, the problem with Revelation is that it wasn't Jesus directly saying these things. It was John the Revelator having a vision and then relating that information back to us. Further, Revelation is so incredibly subjective, it's a near impossibility to know with 100% certainty what he's talking about.
     
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  7. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    But it was Jesus. Jesus spoke directly to John (Revelation 1:17-18 ).

    Also, if you believe Jesus is the Word of God, then you have no choice but to admit that Jesus is God, because John 1:1 (NASB) says, "In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    Sooo.... Jesus is God based on your own interpretation and what the scripture is saying.
     
  8. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Um, God is not a person. He has no body, remember. You tried to tell me the bible described his body, but you could not find any passages to back that up.
     
  9. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Final revelation? Nope. There is the Joseph Smith, later revelation from God. Much of humanity is still rejecting the latest revelation. And what says the one to him is the final one. There may be more revelations we haven't received yet.
     
  10. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Most of the NT is Paul's writings. A persecutor of christians. Had a vision, supposedly, claimed it was Jesus, not one single person could ever verify there was a vision or who the vision was from.
    Paul taught about things almost in opposition to Jesus. So most of the NT is highly questionable.
    Revelation is 'near impossible' so one is just to cast it aside?
     
  11. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    First that's not directly Jesus telling you that. That's john telling you about his vision.

    Second, what John was telling you in John 1:1 is a very simple concept. But it's a concept that they didn't have a word for like they do now. Look at John 1 and tell me what he's describing. Since I don't feel like waiting, I'll just tell you. He is describing the word "personification". When an idea or a concept is represented in human form. Jesus was the very personification of the word of God because he lived it perfectly. John was trying to intimate that to everyone but he didn't have a single word to describe it like we do. So he had to describe the term. And his description is the epitome of the definition of the word personification.

    People try to make Jesus into a God because they want an excuse for their sin. Jesus tells you that you're supposed to be like him. The bible tells you that you're supposed to be like him. But if they can make Jesus into a God then you have an excuse. "I can't live like Jesus did because he's God and I'm not. So when I sin, it's acceptable because I can't be perfect like God." But God and Jesus do not give people that excuse.
     
  12. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    Paul had no intention of writing scripture that would become doctrine and be read as such by people 2000 years later. He was writing letters to specific groups of people at specific times to address specific issues. He had no intention of us reading those things today and attempting to parse through them line for line. Many well-known and respected early church leaders wrote these same kinds of letters, why are they not considered in the same light?

    There's nothing wrong with Paul but you have to recognize what he was and what he was doing. He was an early church leader who recognized specific ideas and behaviors that he considered to be problematic and he addressed them.

    Also Jesus doesn't need Paul to finish what he started. Jesus told you, it is finished. There's nothing more that needed to be done. The only thing left was for you to accept what he taught you. If we took everything out of the bible except matthew mark Luke and John you could still attain eternal life. You need Jesus and his doctrine... But that's all you need.

    Finally I'm a christian not a Paulian. I follow the doctrines teachings and examples set forth by Jesus Christ.
     
  13. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    But John is saying that Jesus is saying these things. Are you, perhaps, saying he's lying?



    You're adding a lot of theory to the scripture. When you do that, you twist its meaning and make it say something it's clearly not saying. Understand that the NT of the bible was written in Koine Greek. Basically, it was written in plain Greek so that even the poor could understand.

    When you say the word is describing "personification", that is your opinion. You have no other scripture to back up this opinion.

    John 1:14 (NLT) says, "So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son."

    Clearly, the scripture is saying Jesus was the Word and the Word was God. It says it in plain English, but you're saying something very obscure which, I believe, doesn't make sense to even yourself. Here are a few other scriptures that say Jesus is God.

    2 Peter 1:1 (NLT) says, "This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior."

    Exodus 3:14 (NLT) says, "God replied to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you.""

    and....

    John 8:58 (NLT) says, "Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I am!”"

    John 10:30-33 (NLT) says, "The Father and I are one.” Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. Jesus said, “At my Father’s direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?” They replied, “We’re stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God.”"

    John 20:28 (NLT) says, "&#8220;My Lord and my God!&#8221; Thomas exclaimed." <-- He was replying directly to Jesus Himself.

    Philippians 2:5-7 (NLT) says, "You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,"

    Titus 2:13 (NLT) says, "while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed."

    Hebrews 1:8-9 (NLT) says, "But to the Son he says, &#8220;Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice. You love justice and hate evil. Therefore, O God, your God has anointed you, pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.&#8221;"


    As you can see, even God the Father in Hebrews calls Jesus "God". To deny this would be to deny the Son. According to the bible.
    1 John 2:23 (NLT) says, "Anyone who denies the Son doesn&#8217;t have the Father, either. But anyone who acknowledges the Son has the Father also."

    Its just as simple as that.
     
  14. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    But I did find scripture that detailed his body. His body was compared to radiate jewels. I'm sorry if it wasn't a narrative that went into gruesome detail.

    Besides, why would you care anyway? You're not even a real atheist. You don't even know what you are.
     
  15. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    No he's not lying but he's telling you a description of a vision he received ~60yrs after Jesus was crucified. If someone came up to you today and said I had a vision of Jesus and this is what he told me. How much stock would you put into that? I'm not saying he's lying but to base the precepts of your beliefs on a mans vision seems a little questionable to me.



    That's incorrect. That's the very definition of personification. An idea or a concept becomes human.

    Incorrect. You are interpreting that the word actually transformed from a corporeal entity to a physical fleshly human body.

    But if that is the case then why does Jesus question God? Why does Jesus have a separate and distinct will from God that is contradictory?

    Only two of those quotes was actually from Jesus. And the quote about he and his father being one he says the EXACT same thing, verbatim, about the Pharisees and their father satan. Does that mean they are actually satan incarnate? Of course not. And Jesus told you immediately before the scripture where he says "i Am" that it is God speaking through him and that God is giving him the words to use and God is the one speaking, not Jesus.

    And you have the father by acknowledging the son, not because he is God but because his teachings bring you to God.

    Jesus EXPLICITLY denied beig God in John 10. The Pharisees accuse him of claiming to be God. And Jesus tells them they're wrong, corrects them, rebukes them and then tells them what he was ACTUALLY claiming.

    There's no question Jesus is not God. we are supposed to be like jesus. He is our perfect example. But he is not God.
     
  16. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    Several prophets had visions from God throughout the entire bible. Are we to not believe their visions either? God revealed himself to Ezekiel in a vision. Should we not believe that? God revealed a message to Peter in a vision. Should we not believe that also? What about Paul, Daniel and King Nebuchadnezzar? The list goes on.

    What you're saying is not correct, and the evidence doesn't seem to persuade you.



    What verse says that? Find me a verse in which Jesus claims Satan is the father of the Pharisees.



    Jesus didn't, and I've already provided you multiple verses showing that.
    At this stage, there's really no convincing you. I've given you multiple scriptures that plainly say "Jesus is God", and you denied them all.

    I hate to say this but... You're not actually Christian. No Christian denies Jesus is God.

    Anyway, thanks for talking with me. I don't see the use of debating since you won't consider the facts I've referenced. You have provided very little of your own to support your theories, so... we're really at a dead end here.
     
  17. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a problem with someone claiming a vision. But I'm not going to take that vision over the doctrine of Christ just because it fits the narrative I want to put forth. You apparently do.

    John 8:44


    Yes he most certainly did and here's the scripture.

    John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

    33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?[c] 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe[d] that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
     
  18. TheImmortal

    TheImmortal Well-Known Member

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    And let me guess. It's also part of your belief that we can't go without sinning. Right?
     
  19. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    Then you will have to disregard majority of the bible.



    Ah, OK. Thanks for providing that. I didn't have an argument here, I just wanted to see the proof and you provided it here. Once again, thanks.





    I quoted the first part to you already. I can quote 34-39 and we can dissect it together.

    John 10:34-39 (NLT) says, "Jesus replied, &#8220;It is written in your own Scriptures that God said to certain leaders of the people, &#8216;I say, you are gods!&#8217; And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people who received God&#8217;s message were called &#8216;gods,&#8217; why do you call it blasphemy when I say, &#8216;I am the Son of God&#8217;? After all, the Father set me apart and sent me into the world. Don&#8217;t believe me unless I carry out my Father&#8217;s work. But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don&#8217;t believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father.&#8221; Once again they tried to arrest him, but he got away and left them."

    Jesus seems to be calling them out here. Jesus debates the verbiage he is using and comparing it to what God says in the OT, and exclaiming that such a phrase should cause no issue - considering God the Father has used the exact verbiage on people. He then says that the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. He's saying they are one. They cannot be one if they aren't both God. Do you see what I'm getting at here?
     
  20. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Neither do you, you're all over the map. I know I'm not a christian of manmade dogma.
    No description/verse you provided said anything about radiant jewels.
     
  21. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    You say I don't know what I am, but then you say you're not Christian... So, I assume that you believe I am Christian. If that's the case, then clearly you KNOW that I know what I am. So, why say I don't know?
     
  22. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    It certainly is part of most major christian religions. The one I was a part of for decades.
    Thoughts, words, deeds. Hard not to be a sinner. Impossible as Jesus is and will be the only sinless person.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You claim to be a christian, but you don't believe like most christians. You've made your own special brand. You think eventually all will enter God's paradise.
     
  23. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    You are describing Reality.

    Reality is outside of thought.
    Reality is never seen.

    Only it's image can be seen, which is called Truth.
     
  24. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    Right,....
    Christ is Truth.

    Truth is just the picture of Reality, which is the Creator.
     
  25. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

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    Most Christians haven't read the bible from cover to cover like I have. I also don't believe in hell because it's simply not in the original Hebrew and Greek. Of course that doesn't mean I'm not Christian. A Christian is a person who believes that Jesus Christ died on the cross for all of our sins, was buried and rose on the third day (1 Cor. 15:1-4). That's it. That's all you need to be a Christian.
     

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