CDC Reveals Hospitals Counted Heart Attacks As COVID-19 Deaths

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by camp_steveo, Oct 27, 2020.

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  1. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    I posted the graph to you twice and here it is again:
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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  3. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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  4. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Why should I have to? You reposted the image. Why omit the source and link?

    Like this: THE NEW YORK TIMES, Where Have All the Heart Attacks Gone? By Harlan M. Krumholz, M.D.
    Published April 6, 2020, Updated May 14, 2020.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/...itals-emergency-care-heart-attack-stroke.html

    So, Fake News?
     
  5. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    I should report you for trolling. You have posted the same link 6 times in three pages. I already replied to your post regarding your NYT article, an article that you clearly do not understand. I provided the link to the graph on page 7. The number of registered deaths from heart attacks this year is no different to the number of registered deaths in previous years
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
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  6. Bearack

    Bearack Well-Known Member

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    First, you can't merely put a single price for an intubated patient as the first 2 days will dictate the majority of the cost to stabilize a patient which can vary by thousands of dollars. Various scans and medications could be administered to determine the patients stability so a blanket request is nearly impossible.

    And pneumonia can be just as contagious as the flu, hence many times (if the pneumonia is not cause by poison or trauma), staff is required to enter using maximum PPE safety guidelines to prevent HAP to staff and other patients.

    What I can assure you is that a patient enters the hospital with RDS, they will be treated exactly the same way initially until they can discern what is causing their RDS.

    You are claiming my statement is incorrect. It's your responsibility to tell me where I am wrong.
     
  7. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, the comorbidity report on the first cell to the left states “Conditions Contributing to Deaths where COVID-19 was listed on the death certificate”
    They didn’t say COVID-19 is the primary cause of death.
    They say, WuFlu was listed as one of the causes.
    I also gave you a quote where CDC literally says that a death with multiple conditions would show up in total tallies for each condition listed on the death certificate.
    Look up report in CDC called “Weekly Counts of Deaths by State and Select Causes, 2019-2020”. In the first paragraph it says that COVID-19 listed twice as underlying or multiple cause deaths. If you download the report and pivot it you’ll see that those numbers are almost the same (filtering only months 1-10, you need to have a few Excel skills), meaning that absolute majority of the COVID-19 deaths list multiple causes. Also, note that no matter how you sum those numbers on that report, even without WuFlu, if you total rows you’ll notice that total for All Cause is significantly lower than the sum of the conditions listed on that report. That means that this report counts 1 death multiple times.

    Can you prove mathematically or by providing a link to technical explanations that prove that each death is indeed counted only once?

    PS: I sent an email to the author of the dataset asking to clarify how they counted deaths in this data, but I’m not holding any hopes on receiving a meaningful response in the near future.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
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  8. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    So no cost figures to compare with Covid patients yet all we hear is that hospitals are over charging!

    Anyway, then there is this from 2017:
    https://www.kff.org/uninsured/issue...ing-the-uninsured-hospitalized-with-covid-19/

    So no different to what hospitals are receiving now for Covid patients
     
  9. Bearack

    Bearack Well-Known Member

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    I never made any such claim of over charging. Hospitals are receiving a federal stipend for COVID patients. They performing the same procedures but receive additional funding for treating COVID.

    Over charging is your word, not mine. Your article is also for uninsured patients with COVID which clearly states that hospital will be reimbursed for uninsured patients.

    "The three COVID-19 stimulus bills that Congress has passed provide additional funding for hospitals and for free coronavirus testing for the uninsured through Medicaid. While Congress did not allocate any money specifically for COVID-19 treatment or coverage for the uninsured, President Trump has stated his intention to reimburse hospitals for treating the uninsured by tapping a new $100 billion in funding for hospitals and other health care entities included in the third stimulus, the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act. The legislation provided little detail about how funding would be distributed, giving significant discretion to the Secretary of Health and Human Services."

    Thank you president Trump as congress is unwilling to help the uninsured.
     
  10. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Making money out of diagnosing Covid patients is the topic. And they are not receiving additional funding for treating Covid patients - they are receiving the same money as they would for similar treatments given to non-covid patients
     
  11. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Ha, CDC responded to my inquiry.
    Here is my question:

    Answer:
    Now, dig up that report in CDC named “Weekly Counts of Deaths by State and Select Causes, 2019-2020”. Download the CSV file.
    Delete all states and just live The US (entire country). Add a column, name it month, and do Month function on Week Ending Column.
    Pivot the table to show causes as values, MMWR year as row, month column should be filter and apply filter to include data for months 1-10.
    Total for COVID multiple cause: 211,804.
    Total for COVID-19 underlying cause: 194,390.

    As CDC clarified, COVID-19 with multiple causes will show up in tallies for other causes as well.
    Now, dig up the comorbidity report.
    Current total is 210,326 (close enough to multiple cause deaths)
    That 210,326 includes:
    Hypertensive disease: 45,574
    Cancers: 9,865
    Diabetes: 34,627

    Now, go back to that spreadsheet with pivot table. Diabetes deaths in 2019: 71,713, in 2020: 77,238. That’s a 7% increase.
    Comorbidity report says, again, that 34,627 died with WuFlu who had diabetes. That’s like half the amount of 2019 and 2020!!!
    So, this means that we have about 35,000 people who were “supposed” to die in 2020 of diabetes were included in total tally for WuFlu! If that’s not the case and those people who were supposed to die this year of diabetes died of WuFlu - then shouldn’t we see a 50% drop in diabetes deaths?
     
  12. Bearack

    Bearack Well-Known Member

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    You made the initial assertion that hospitals were over charging. I never claimed such. I did claim that hospitals receive an additional federal stipend for patients that are diagnosed with COVID so you assertion above (bold and underlined for clarity) is unequivocally wrong.

    Special Bulletin: Senate Passes the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act

    DRG Add-on
    During the emergency period, the legislation provides a 20% add-on to the DRG rate for patients with COVID-19. This add-on will apply to patients treated at rural and urban inpatient prospective payment system (IPPS) hospitals.
     
  13. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    The figures for Covid deaths + diabetes is not saying that they were "supposed" to die in 2020. Covid reduced their life span which gives rise to the excess deaths figure of over 260,000 compared to 2019 (sum of death from all causes of weeks 1 - 42)
     
  14. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Little doubt that it costs more to treat patients in rural and urban hospitals so what is the problem of hospitals receiving more in these locations. Hospitals are receiving less money for treating Covid patients than other similar patients. And it seems that your argument is that hospitals are either making fake diagnosis or forcing patients into hospital - is that really what you are saying?

    2017: $13297 (non-ventilator) & $40218 (ventilator)
    https://www.kff.org/uninsured/issue...ing-the-uninsured-hospitalized-with-covid-19/

    2020: $13000 & $39000 respectively
     
  15. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Again, when I’m saying “supposed to die” I imply statistical trend - if in 2019 75k people died from diabetes, then 2020 will be somewhere in that range too, considering all things equal.
    The numbers are pretty identical in total causes reports. What needs to be questioned is this - we expected about 75k deaths from diabetes, but if 35k of these patients died of WuFlu, that means they didn’t live long enough to die to diabetes.
    Where is that 50% drop in diabetes deaths? Or, are you going to claim that we have a mysterious spike in diabetes deaths (a disease that takes years to develop) in 2020?

    This data points to a possibility that the WuFlu is not being treated normally (statistically) and people who were already dying from their existing long-term conditions are being counted in regular totals and in WuFlu totals concurrently.
    The email from CDC literally says that!
    Out of those 210k dead from WuFlu most were supposed to die this year from their existing conditions. That means that the quarantine is useless.

    Also, since you like excess deaths report, take a look at annual trends in that report. Deaths seem to increase at the end of fall / beginning of winter. If WuFlu deaths are counted concurrently with other conditions, then the current spike in deaths is nothing but a trend of all deaths happening every year and WuFlu has minimal impact on that trend.
     
  16. Bearack

    Bearack Well-Known Member

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    Oy Vey!

    Cost more to treat patient in rural and urban hospitals compared too??

    And in response to this;
    Please point to where I argued that making "fake" diagnoses or forcing people into hospitals. I've already clearly stated that our institution has been well below normal operating capacity

    Also, per CDC guidelines, a patient merely needs to exhibit symptoms to qualify for any federal subsidy.

    The attached was the original CDC guidance for certifying COVID deaths, but this also fell in line with patient intake.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Those 35k in your example will have died in the future from diabetes, some many years from now. Getting Covid brought their death earlier; it wasn't the diabetes that killed them, having diabetes reduced their chance of survival from Covid. These early deaths will show themselves in reduced number of deaths from diabetes in future years.

    Excess deaths: Total number of deaths from all causes:
    2019 (week 1 to week 42) = 2,289,053
    2020 (week 1 to week 42) = 2,551,781
    Excess deaths = 262,728
     
  18. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    What is actually your point! A hospital will not receive any money if a patient is not admitted so how would they get money just because "a patient merely needs to exhibit symptoms"
     
  19. Bearack

    Bearack Well-Known Member

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    We've been talking about patient intake from the get go and you're just intentionally being coy and evasive now.

    I've honestly had more intellectual discussions with a high school janitor than what we've had here.

    On that, I bid you a adieu and wish you a wonderful Friday eve.
     
  20. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    LOL at you running away from your claim that a hospital will intake a patient when that "patient merely needs to exhibit symptoms"
     
  21. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Can you send me the link for that particular report? The one I found lists the death toll that is much higher than the numbers you quoted.
     
  22. Bearack

    Bearack Well-Known Member

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    No, I claimed that in order for them to be classified as a COVID patient, they merely need to exhibit symptoms.
     
  23. Bearack

    Bearack Well-Known Member

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    I'd also be EXTREMELY interested in the 2018 numbers as they were much higher than 2019..
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
  24. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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  25. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    But the hospital would not receive any more money whether the patient was classified as Covid or any other similar disease:

    2017: $13297 (non-ventilator) & $40218 (ventilator)
    https://www.kff.org/uninsured/issue...ing-the-uninsured-hospitalized-with-covid-19/

    2020: $13000 & $39000 respectively for Covid classified patients
     

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