Demographic change in vaccinated people, and reasons to drop hesitancy

Both sides are spewing the lies. Would you agree with that?

 

Of course the left don't care how many people died from the vaccines or how many people suffer severe adverse reactions to the vaccines as long as they can force their agenda on others.

 

Be careful, nobody has a monopoly on lies in this mess and vehemently calling someone a liar because they don't buy what you are selling is no way to discuss anything. If facts are important people do have reactions to the vaccine and people do get Covid in spite of the vaccine. No lie!

 

Never mind parroting a mindless slur based on nothing but emotion and meant to silence any opposition is not "science" nor showing off an education its actually showing quite the opposite.

 

Well, normally I'd agree with you on this. For example, I've said that Falci has lied about masks. But the particular user I was talking about goes to the trouble of posting a picture of a young child with smallpox taken years ago (which is confirmed by looking at the smallpox website from where the picture was poached; also, no children younger than 12 have had a Covid-19 vaccine) and pretending that it's a picture of a child that had a reaction to the Covid-19 vaccine (I mean, if that can't be called a lie, what else can???). Then you have another poster here (with whom I no longer interact) who keeps sustaining that the Covid-19 vaccines caused the Delta variant, when it is easy to demonstrate (and I've done it, with links and all) that the Delta variant was first spotted in India on October 5, 2020, when vaccination in India only started 3 and a half months later on January 16, 2021. The person apparently continues to say that the vaccine caused Delta (does he have a functioning time travel machine?) so there is no other way to call this statement, other than it being a lie. Sometimes, despite the civilized rules of engagement, one needs to call something, what it is. There's no escaping the fact that these are lies.

 

What I see is we are still getting a lot of hooie (lies) about this virus. If we were 100% vaccinated we would still have Covid among us because vaccinated people are still getting it and still spreading it. That makes it hard to buy the Administration mandates and the ridiculous argument that masks are going to save anyone. While it's frustrating for you and others that some people campaign against the vax, I see nothing for them to gain by that position. Everything I see and hear only reaffirms my conclusion that people are capable of and entitled to their own decision about it. I'm vaccinated but I certainly am not qualified to tell you what to do about it for yourself.

My only personal anecdote on it is that some time after I got the shots on one of my regular Dr visits for a checkup he heard my heart skip. He said he had never heard that before and made me an appointment with a Cardiologist. I wore a monitor for 24 hours and was told it was not significant. I still see him semi annually to keep an eye on it. What I take from that is that my Dr immediately saw it as something to look at and that is probably due to the fact that there actually are ill side effects from the vax. Of course, I ain't no kid anymore either.

 

As long as people know I posted number of dead Americans due to covid vs the number of American citizens, they can believe whatever they want.

Even your silly notion of the left authoritarian agenda you made up in your head.

 

Yes, they did.
I posted you the link to those numbers located on the CDC website. I believe the number was 8156 or something very similar.
It's only a few posts back, you can go look at the CDC website for yourself. You even responded to that very post with the CDC link and numbers.

 

Fair enough. Yes, there's been lies from the current administration (the last one lied too). I experience no desire to defend them when they lie; I'm not a Democrat; I'm independent and I abhor both parties.

It's nice that you say this, "I certainly am not qualified to tell you what to do about it for yourself." - most posters here feel qualified to say all sorts of things and it's frequently nonsense... Actually I happen to be qualified for real myself, given that I'm an MD/PhD with 41 years of experience, and expertise in Virology and Immunology (and no, nonsense coming from me is very rare although I'm not infallible, of course). So, yes, I'm qualified to decide what to do about it for myself, and to advise my loved ones, and my patients (while respecting what they ultimately decide). I'm vaccinated and all my loved ones also are, and we'll get booster shots when available for our particular situations.

Yes, the fact that vaccinated people can still get the disease and spread it, does weaken the rationale for vaccine mandates. I've said many times, I'm against mandates. I prefer gentle education and persuasion. I do make an exception for healthcare workers: I think we do need to be vaccinated. We're mandated to get the flu shot and the Hep B shot. There is no argument to exclude Covid-19 from that. Hospitals have a legitimate interest in getting their staff vaccinated, so that fewer people call in sick and further add to staff shortages, and so that hospitals don't incur the liability of their own staff passing the virus on to vulnerable patients. So, as an EMPLOYER decision that so far has nothing to do with Biden's mandate because the latter is not even in effect yet, hospitals have moved to considering the Covid-19 vaccine as a condition for employment, and they are within their rights to do so (including, two recent court decisions confirmed that).

This said, no, the vaccines were never said to be 100% protective. Even when we had only the ancestral and weaker Wuhan strain, Pfizer and Moderna phase III trials still showed 95% and 94% efficacy (respectively); not 100%. The Delta variant made it worse.

But one thing you need to consider: even though the vaccinated can still catch the virus and can still transmit it, they do so in much more infrequent numbers, and for a shorter period. I recently posted a link showing that state by state, the number of vaccinated people who got a breakthrough infection has varied between 0.1% to 0.54% of the total number of vaccinated people in each state. Maybe you won't believe me because the press has been so bombastic about breakthrough infections, making them appear like they are much more frequent than they actually are. I remember a point when we had 150,000 breakthrough infections and that's a lot of people that will feed the anti-vaxxers with all sorts of anecdotal "evidence" - but these 150,000 were out of 165 million vaccinated people, so, the actual rate was, 0.09%, a bit less at the time than it has been now with the Delta. So, even if you get the 0.54%, it's still about half of one percent... so given that you need to catch the virus first before you transmit it, you can see that the vaccine does decrease the likelihood of someone passing the virus onto someone else.

And see, while the breakthrough infections do damage the mandate rationale to a certain degree, not entirely. The flu shot is much less effective than the Covid-19 vaccines... certain years the flu shot doesn't do much more than 40%... but still, it is mandatory for hospital workers.

Much was said of the fact that the INITIAL viral load is the same for vaccinated and unvaccinated people, suggesting equal ability to infect others. Well, no. Of course the initial one is similar; that's how vaccines work; you need to get the virus so that your immune system, trained and primed by the vaccine, then jumps into fresh and massive antibody production (T cells activate B cells into antibody-producing plasma cells). This process takes a day or two among the vaccinated, and 10-14 days among the unvaccinated. So, the vaccinated start with a similar viral load but then it rapidly declines as the onslaught of fresh antibodies clear the virus, while the unvaccinated persist with high viral load, and continue to be highly infectious for longer.

About your doctor obtaining a Holter monitor recording of your 24-hour heart rhythm: it was good to have done that. But I doubt that the doctor was worried about a vaccine side effect, or else he'd have ordered other tests, such as inflammatory markers specific to the heart, and cardiac MRI, looking for signs of myocarditis, which is the heart issue that the mRNA vaccines can cause. But see, you say you're not a spring chicken... and vaccine-induced myocarditis tends to only occur in people younger than 30 (and it's typically mild and transient while the virus itself can cause the same issue in 30% of people), so your doctor had no reason to suspect it. You could have been having cardiac arrhythmias from any number of other causes, the most common one being atherosclerosis affecting the part of the heart that provides the electric stimulus for the heart rhythm. I'm glad that your Holter result is reassuring. But you shouldn't assume that this was related to the vaccine. It's just a coincidence in time, a.k.a. a correlation, rather than a causal relationship.

 

No they didn't and neither do the left. They list the number 8164 and then go on with some gobbledygook about they don't really know how these people died. I'll give you credit for at least acknowledging it. The very huge majority of the left deny there are any deaths at all. And, I'll admit that there might be a number in that total who didn't actually die due to the vaccine but there are still thousands who did. And, the CDC won't even list the numbers of the vaccinated who had very serious adverse reactions, sectioning them out into different categories and then only listing formulas instead of actual numbers.

 

I wouldn't question your background and qualifications or your numbers ................... but....
My brother and sister both got Covid last month and both had been vaxed. You can see what that might tell me about the possibility of breakthroughs.

 

No, that doesn't tell you anything about the possibility of breakthroughs. It's anecdotal. Yes, there will be clusters here and there. But if you plot the numbers to the TOTAL number of vaccinated people, you'll see that the rate is tiny.

 

To you it's an anecdote, to me it's my life. It's something I can see, not a page full of statistics telling me how unlikely it is that my brother and sister will get sick, they already did. My son and his wife have had it and recovered. My MIL had it at 82 and recovered, My FIL's sister died from it so we have anecdotes in the family. I suspect we are typical and that is why you are having so much trouble selling the idea that Uncle Sam knows best. All the BS from the beginning hasn't helped. There is a raft of information out there and some of it is hands on and the anecdotes that are our lives will weigh heavily on decisions that are being made. I'm not trying to sway anyone one way or the other about the shots, just trying to explain some of the personal politics that are involved. People have a right to make this choice for themselves. Losing your job shouldn't ever be part of the process of making your healthcare choices.

 

I respect the fact that for you what I'm calling an anecdote is very real. I never implied that anecdotes are not real. I'm just saying that they don't depict the whole picture, because just like you can say that two of your vaccinated siblings got it, I can tell you that none of my 3 vaccinated siblings got it. One of my brothers got it, before the vaccine was available.

So in my family, counting me as one of the five siblings we have this:

The 4 vaccinated ones didn't get.
The 1 unvaccinated one did get it.

So, you go by what happened in your family, but if we were to go by what happened in mine, it would be a totally different conclusion. Which is why to draw public health policy it is not recommended to go by anecdotes (although they are real). It is advisable to look at the FULL set of people, and when you do that, the percentage of vaccinated people who catch breakthrough infections is tiny.

And even better, when they do, the overwhelming majority of them get mild cases, which is likely what fortunately happened to your brother and sister.

My unvaccinated brother who got it before he had the opportunity to be vaccinated (which he would have accepted), survived but had a devastating stroke (which is one of the complications of Covid-19, which damages the inner layer of the blood vessels called endothelium, greatly increasing the odds of a stroke). I'm quite convinced that my brother would have avoided that, if he had had the opportunity to be vaccinated.

Who is losing their job due to this? Like I said, Biden's mandate hasn't even been enforced yet, hasn't kicked in, and it doesn't contain mandatory vaccination because it does have an opt-out clause of weekly testing. So if the person doesn't want the vaccine but doesn't want to get fired the person can still just get the weekly test. Is it inconvenient? Sure. Getting this virus is also inconvenient. It is very inconvenient too, to the people to whom the infected person passes the virus on.

Now, regarding the healthcare workers who have been fired (200 from the New York-Presbyterian Hospital in New York City, 175 from the Novant health system in Charlotte, NC, etc.) I say good riddance. These people are in healthcare. It's a science-driven field. If they don't believe in science they have no business being in healthcare. If they are at a high risk of catching Covid (a study I recently linked to found that their odds of catching it are 37 times higher than the odds of a vaccinated person catching it) and of passing it on to unsuspecting and vulnerable patients they are taking care of, who deserve an expectation of being protected from being infected by staff, yes, absolutely they shouldn't be allowed any close to those patients and should be fired. No doubt about it.

I'm sorry to hear about your FIL's sister.

 

Thank you.

It seems we ain't ever gonna mesh our views.

 

That's fine. I'm glad to know that you got the vaccine. I encourage you to get the booster too, when available.

 

Seems like the mandate for healthcare workers is working. Hospitals are having to fire 0.5% to 1% of their workforce and have been successful in hiring vaccinated people to fill the vacancies.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/data-sho...are-worker-inoculation-numbers-180025150.html

 

That's a choice I am still able to make for myself

 

So you just admitted they posted the number that died from the vaccine shot. 8164 and you got that from the CDC website.

Yes there are those that die from the vaccine. I never said otherwise. And the % that do is 0.002% of all the shots given.

Here is the final paragraph they have on their website.
...
Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 390 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through September 27, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 8,164 reports of death (0.0021%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths pdf icon

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

 

With that many deaths are you not curious about his question about how many might have serious permanent damage?

 

Sure, do you have some data?
Somewhere in this thread a number of about 10,000 was given of those that had serious side effects without death.

 

Our current Administration is known, not suspected but known to lie to us, I don't think I would trust their numbers on any aspect of this struggle. I certainly don't believe they would sabotage their own efforts to force everyone to get the vax by handing out bad news about the damage it might do. I'm not saying they are lying to us about it, just that I believe they absolutely would.

 

And those 10% efficacy is only in the experimental settings.

As long as people know that you are using fuzzy math to push authoritarian rule, we should be ok for now.

 

Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 390 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through September 27, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 8,164 reports of death (0.0021%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused death
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

Now post your numbers to prove your claim.

 

You can only look at the current case / fatality ratio.
It is approximately stays the same, as during the previous spikes regardless of vaccination efforts.