Hell problem?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Hastings, Nov 16, 2011.

  1. Jstar

    Jstar New Member

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    @Maat:

    That is at the final Great White Throne Judgment, and the unbelievers 'will' be cast into the lake of fire to be tormented forever.

    Revelation 20:7-15
    The Defeat of Satan

    7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Revelation 20:11–15
    Judgment Before the Great White Throne

    11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    -----------------
    "I as a human could not comprehend condemning anyone(including Hitler) on earth to an everlasting(trillions upon trillions of years) torment. Why would I find it acceptable or just for God to do so."

    That's the whole thing right there..you're a human, you're not God, and God is just. As I said before, hell was NOT created for humans, and God does NOT want people to go there, but He gives people a choice..and He tells them what their destination will be for each.

    You may think the link I give here is showing a woman who is looney toons, but you need to listen to her...

    http://spiritlessons.com/mary_k_baxter_a_divine_revelation_of_hell.htm

    If you don't want to read it, you can listen to audio at her site, or even watch the video there...

    Found better playing versions on Youtube in 3 parts tho:

    It's Supernatural (2008-02-04) Mary K. Baxter

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr4hRjZmWOI"]It's Supernatural (2008-02-04) Mary K. Baxter (Part 1 of 3) - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sITpdP0Lhwo&feature=related"]It's Supernatural (2008-02-04) Mary K. Baxter (Part 2 of 3) - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffoVRyQNreI&feature=related"]"A Divine Revelation of Hell" (Part 3 of 3) - YouTube[/ame]
    --------------
    She also gives a shorter detail of Heaven..which after watching and listening..I choose Heaven.

    Make of this what you will....just thought I'd pass it along ;)
     
  2. Sooner28

    Sooner28 New Member

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    This is only a problem if you believe in a God that sends people to hell simply for not believing he exists. You could be a universalist, and say we all go to heaven. Or maybe none of us. However, I'm going to try and stick to the topic you laid out.

    I think you are correct that hell is morally unjustifiable. I have a specific argument against it.

    1. No punishment that is infinite can ever be morally justified.

    Imagine you were to punish Hitler for the average life span of the people he killed (let's say 85) and also for the pain and suffering he caused the victims families (500 years). Most historians say approximately 6 million Jews were killed during the holocaust. So let's do the math. 6 million times 85 times 500 is...255 billion years. This number could be added, and "word" emotional turmoil could be accounted for, but it wouldn't change the underlying point.

    So leaving out the obvious that this would be cruel and unusual punishment, there cannot be any INFINITE punishment for a FINITE crime. That is completely and utterly absurd. Even using the numbers I did, it's clearly not infinite...

    2. Hell is an infinite punishment.

    Those who hold to the doctrine affirm this. I don't feel like I need to lay much more out here.

    Therefore, by deduction, hell can never be morally justified.

    For people who don't understand deduction, it means if the premises are true, then the conclusion MUST be true also. So there is no denying the conclusion without denying one of the premises. And I don't see anyone denying premise 2 that hell is an infinite punishment. So that only leaves premise 1 to be denied. So to anyone who responds to this, you have a few options.

    You can obviously agree. Or you can deny premise 1 (somehow, and I'd LOVE to see that), or you could possibly quibble about my phrasing, which is fair game. But anyone who just denies the conclusion is being intellectually dishonest.
     
  3. BFSmith@764

    BFSmith@764 Banned

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    I challenge you and all those who believe that wicked will be in Hell forever to explain this.

    Revelation 20:14-15 (KJV)
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    If death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire how is it that people are going to be in hell forever? The purpose of the fire is to destroy death and hell.....that's why it will be cast their. Do you know where this lake of fire will be?
     
  4. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Remember--this is at the end of time as we know it--linear progression, one moment following the next--how is the "Lake of Fire" functionally different from Hell, except that there will be no more additions to the population? There is no evidence of difference. It is permanent (*)(*)(*)(*)ation.
     
  5. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Simple. They will be in hell along with death in that lake of fire. Where is that lake of fire going to be... again... simple.. Where ever God wants it to be.
     
  6. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

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    The problem is you're asserting your own private morality over God's and using arbitrarily applied numbers to buttress your weak argument. The truth is, people are incapable of understanding the true horror of sin because we are dull to it. We think our sin isn't that bad, but we're looking at it with fallen eyes, not the eyes of holiness.

    The finite values you place on sin are constructs of your mind artificially superimposed on sins of a magnitude that can only be properly audited by a holy God. You and I are in absolutely no position to assess how eggregious sin is.


    But you haven't laid out any premise based on unassailable evidence. Instead, you've asserted ignorant, albeit strongly held opinions as an axiom by which we can judge celestial matters beyond our perception.

    Yes. Or we believe what the Bible says rather than your smug posturings.
     
  7. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [​IMG]


    I just came across this and it made me chuckle. :twisted:

    .
     
  8. Sooner28

    Sooner28 New Member

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    Possibly so, but provide me with a method to determine whether I should follow God or not. Should I just blindly believe? Or perhaps I should try to assess whether this deity exists. If a Muslim were you tell you that you were using your own "private morality" to say that women should be treated as equals, contrary to Allah's holy word in the Koran, you would rightfully ask how they determined what their God ordered was just. I am simply doing the same If you can provide a method for determining whether God is moral or not, and show that the Bible is this deity's actual "holy word," then maybe my point will lose force.

    I clearly stated the numbers were partially arbitrary. But the general point is easily seen as by your response and what appears to just be a blind acceptance of a rather hideous doctrine and telling me I somehow unable to grasp it's "true" nature.


    I affirm Allah is the only God. And women are inferior to men. Your finite mind cannot understand God's ways. Repent from your sinful ways and become a Muslim so you can truly understand why women are in fact inferior to men. Your inability to understand the moral perfectness of the Koran is because of your infidel nature.
     
  9. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva New Member

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    There is no "hell," or devil demon of hell, in the Old Testament.

    Those ideas came in later with pagan Roman contact.

    The OT has Sheol - which is not a hell, it is where ALL the dead go to await final judgement, and Sa' atan, whom is following god's plan testing people, - and if found wanting - he stands beside god and presents the evadence.
     
  10. kowalskil

    kowalskil New Member

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    I believe that Allah is the only God in your spiritual world. But that does not mean Allah should be the only God in spiritual worlds of all people on earth, or that other people are inferior.
    .
     
  11. BFSmith@764

    BFSmith@764 Banned

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    God did not say that women are inferior to men. How can men be superior to women, when Eve came from Adam? She was bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. How can men be superior when all men, other than Adam came through a woman? How can women be inferior to men when God said that when the two came together as husband and wife they are now one?

    When God made Adam and Eve He said let them have dominion over all things on the Earth. But He never said that Adam was to have dominion over Eve, his wife, and no man is to have dominion over any women……we are all co rulers over what God has given us. It was only after sin entered humanity that God said as a result of that, that Adam/man would rule over his wife. But no one is superior to anyone because all are in the image of God, though tarnished by sin.
     
  12. Sooner28

    Sooner28 New Member

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    I think you missed the point of my argument. But I am very happy you are defending equal treatment of the sexes within Christianity. I used the example to bolster the point that it is easy to claim God's ways are above our finite minds, and then use that argument to justify anything we so desire. I was just using Islam as an example, and then pretending to be Muslim to try and show how ridiculous the argument about God's ways being higher than our ways (without any sort of qualification) is.
     
  13. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

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    This latest post throws into sharp relief the wretchedly erroneous premise you operate from. Your arguments presuppose that truth is relative and that I can no more have a bead on truth than a Muslim or anyone else. The issue of relativity in truth goes right to the heart of whether or not God exists because if God exists and He is omnipotent, then he orders the universe and sets intransigent standards by which it operates. It further follows that there is an iron clad standard of truth that can be grasped and understood and that all ideas that fail to line up with that truth are error.

    Those who operate on the premise of relative truth ultimately find themselves sucked into circular paradoxes that defy logic. You can say truth is not absolute, but can you say that absolutely? If your argument is no more valid than mine, then why is anybody listening to you as if you have a dominant grasp on reality?

    Fortunately for me, I believe in absolute truth and God Almighty as the ochestrator of that truth. I can say that God is real and Islam is a lie; that Jesus is God's Son sent to earth to die for our sins and isn't just some prophet as Muslims claim. In the world of absolutes, we can't both be right and since Jesus is Lord, Islam is wrong in its denial of that fact.

    Moreover, it's no surprise to me that the belief there is no hell springs from the belief there is no absolutes. This is nothing more than error springing from error. The disbelief in absolute truth is at the heart of every argument the devil makes to advance error against the truth beginning with the very first relative truth arguments the serpent spoke in Eden.

    You have been refuted, my friend.
     
    Incorporeal and (deleted member) like this.
  14. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post saintmichaeldefendthem. Rep is deserving.
     
  15. BFSmith@764

    BFSmith@764 Banned

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    OK........................
     
  16. Sooner28

    Sooner28 New Member

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    I'm not trying to be snippy, but you should probably understand what I am actually arguing before making bold proclamations claiming to have refuted me.

    My argument in no way presupposes that truth is relative whatsoever. Otherwise it would be easy for you to turn it back on me and say well your premises can be true for you but they aren't true for me. And since all truth is relative (which seems to be incoherent, since I wouldn't be able to determine whether that statement was itself relative or absolute) I can be just as right as you are.

    You and another person have both misunderstood my Islam example. So I am going to take it as a fault on my part that I was unclear as to what I was trying to say.

    The standard reply to a lot of difficult issues with God and Christianity is to say God's ways are higher than our ways. And it's not a completely bad reply. The example of a parent teaching a child that has a limited capacity to be rational illustrates what the point gets at pretty well I think. However, that does not escape the problem I posed to you.

    I am going to assume for the sake of this argument that God exists. My argument that I previously laid out doesn't require God to exist or not exist, but I'll start with that to hopefully illustrate what I mean. When I pretended to be a Muslim that said women were inferior and then claimed God's ways are above our ways, and then dared you to refute me, you completely abdicated it. I asked you for a process to determine whether I should follow what God says in the Bible or not. And again, you failed to answer exactly what process I should use. You instead strangely accused me of being a relativist with regards to truth.

    You failing to provide a process means you seem to just be accepting it on blind obedience, or tradition, or whatever process you are using. I'm not entirely sure. So without a clear cut process, I can use the same type of argument for any religious belief I want, even if it sounds abhorrent. And that is where the problem lies. Basing morality on God means you either have to just non-thinkingly accept the Bible, or the Koran, or whatever holy book you choose as God's word, and then the specific interpretation that you are using, or you are presupposing morality already in order to judge that God is good. If I were to tell you to accept Allah as moral and just, and that your finite mind should not ask too many questions, then you would rightly call me crazy. But this is exactly what you are currently doing to me.

    If you can give me a process to determine whether or not to follow God, rather than just asserting it and expecting me to blindly accept it, then maybe we can make some progress. But your current answers so far have really not helped at all, and it's pretty clear that if I was a relativist I would have to preface everything with MY SUBJECTIVE OPINION that binds no one else but me.
     
  17. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Under that presupposition that God exists, then there would also have to be the presupposition that the Bible is the Word of God, else modern man would conceivably not have the notion of God that is held by so many in this day and age.

    With that said, the process of determining whether or not to accept the Bible or the Koran is found within the Bible:

    1 John 4: 1-3
    1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. "

    Will the Koran or other holy books make such a proclamation? I ask that question seriously and not as a gimmick question. I don't know what those other books say in that regard.
     
  18. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

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    Unfortunately rhetorical exchanges are not like boxing matches where there is a clear winner. The loser is not knocked out and continues to insist he hasn't lost the match because he can still swing punches.

    Your arguments utilize the presumption of relative truth to make the case that I can no more assert my God as the true God than can the Muslims. Yes I seized on that because that's what you presented.

    You're trying to pivot the conversation to Islam to approach the issue of hellfire from a different direction that precludes the most time tested and proven literary work of human history, the holy Bible. I didn't misunderstand your strategy, I saw through it.

    That was actually my argument, to point out that you're putting human values on the seriousness of sin and the remunerations it incurs with no regard to how God sees it with much better eyes than ours.

    How strange that I took my cues from your arguments. I would rather toil to convince you to follow the Church as even the Bible is a product of a greater source of authority and points us to that authority calling the Church "the pillar and foundation of truth". (1Tim 3:15) For Christ invested all his authority in his holy church and by that authority the canon of the Bible was established at the councils of Rome and Hippo in the 4th century. As Jesus said, the servant does not become greater than his master, nor the Bible greater than the Church that officialized it. This is the error of Protestantism to subjegate the master to the servant.

    I could labor long to demonstrate the reliability of the Bible as an accurate history of the people of God and my arguments would be as compelling as they are unassailable. But you're right in that faith is a gift that comes from God and I cannot put faith into you. The Holy Spirit quickens our heart to receive the full revelation of God in Christ Jesus and eventually all the other pieces start falling into place as we grow in the knowledge and grace of our Lord.

    My method for persuading you to convert would begin in a foundation of axioms we can likely agree on, that there must be something greater than this world where love and goodness are unmitigated by the tawdriness and misery we see in this world; where virtue is unsullied by hypocricy and we can achieve happiness without end. How do I know I can connect with you on this issue? Because God has put eternity in your heart (Ecclesiastes 3:11) that you may look to the sky and hope for a distant shore.

    Building on that, I can tell you about the great lengths to which God the Creator has gone to build a bridge between Himself and humanity, sending his Son into the world to take upon Himself the consequences of our sin so that we can live forever with him in a loving and intimate relationship. I know I can connect with you on this because everyone longs to be loved unconditionally; to be known completely and treasured in spite of our shortcomings.

    I can further entice you by the offer of complete forgiveness for your sins. I would talk to you about the meaning of Christs death and resurrection and how the sacrificial Lamb of God became a just propitiation for sins so that all you have to do is ask and you can have every terrible and rotten thing you've ever done completely wiped clean. I know I am reaching you because I know what it's like to stagger under the weight of sin and its incessant accusation against me. I simply remember what it's like to weep in happy tears as all that weight was lifted off of me and offer you the same relief.

    Then I would tell you about the holy Church, the bride of Christ, commissioned to make disciples of the nations. I would tell you about the glorious company of saints including the Blessed Virgin. I would let you know that you could have many brothers and sisters here on earth each bound together by redemption and by the common hope of eternal life. You would join a family. I know this would touch you because everyone wants to belong to a loving family where people love you without precondition.

    And then I would lead you in prayer.

    Notice in none of this did I cudgel you with theology or create a paradigm where you are wrong and need to submit to the truth. You would not be prevailed upon to bow to my impregnable arguments because my approach was not adversarial. Moreover, you would long to have what I have because you would sense my deep, sincere, and guileless love for you and through me, you would see God's love for you and yearning to embrace you as a prodigal son.

    That's how I would try to get you to follow God.
     
  19. Sooner28

    Sooner28 New Member

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    Not even close. The Bible being the word of God is a completely different position that has to be established. Not sure why you would conflate the two. Let's say you give me a knockdown argument that God exists, with traditional attributes. Now, I would then ask you why you think the Bible is the word of God? You can't just say, God exists, therefore the Bible is true.
     
  20. Sooner28

    Sooner28 New Member

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    Uh-huh...

    No it does not! I don't know any other way to explain this. I wast just using your line of reasoning to justify Islam. That's IT. God's ways our above our ways because that is your only real defense of hell. If I were to take your wife and burn her in front of you, and say she never accepted me as her savior, and this burning would NEVER end, and there was nothing you could do to stop it, then you would rightfully call me a monster. It's not much more complicated than that. I was not saying both are possible true. Clearly I believe Islam is utterly false! There, no more calling me a relativist now! What else do I believe is false? There blue and not blue can both be true. That 2 and 2 does not equal four. That I am 6-8 and built like Hercules. I'm a strange relativist!

    But you claim sin does not allow us to make moral judgments on God. So how do you know God is good without just believing it without any rational basis whatsoever, since us petty morals clearly cannot say God is good or bad?

    You probably should then. Otherwise I have no reason to listen to what you say because you have given me nothing to go off of, except God is higher than us, have faith, or burn for eternity. And just because historical facts the Bible records are correct, that doesn't establish the supernatural parts.

    There MUST be? Why? Why must there be something greater than this world where love and goodness exist and everything is paradise? It does not HAVE to be the case. Wishful thinking or hoping, or believing something because it is less depressing are no defense my good sir.

    Talking about the Bible without establishing it's authenticity...And the love isn't unconditional eh? Because without the sinner's prayer, there is no salvation. So it is conditional on the individual praying it. It would be like a parent saying yes, I will love you son, but only if you ASK me for forgiveness. Otherwise I will burn you alive, since that is what you deserve. I could have more respect for you as a theist if you didn't hold to hell. Perhaps unbelievers could just cease to exist, while believers get paradise. But you insist on eternal torture!

    So you tried to explain your theology in neat packaging appealing to my feelings. I don't see how this is relevant at all. You are telling me to believe that an infinite amount of punishment is ok. So I can burn your wife for eternity if I am the creator, and because I am the creator, there is no moral judgment you can bring against me. I'm not buying that.
     
  21. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    "I am going to assume for the sake of this argument that God exists."
    Those words sound familiar?

    Need I repeat the next sentence?

    Remember, you established a scenario for the operation of this discussion. It is not nice to change the parameters of the discussion in the middle of the discussion. Otherwise, I would be forced to say to you "You can't just say, God exists without offering some proof of the existence of God."
     
  22. Sooner28

    Sooner28 New Member

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    Yes. Now why is the Bible the word of God?
     
  23. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Because (as your premise suggests) God exists, therefore God is Omnisscient, and in that Omniscient state of being, God knew that the people on earth needed a script whereby they would have a set of laws and code of ethics in which to conduct their lives, then God (through that Omniscient state of being and His Omnipotent state of being) decided to inspire certain individuals to do some writing as (not necessarily accurate writing) he provided information to those writers. God also knew that those writings would later become known as the Bible or Holy Bible or the Word of God.
     
  24. Sooner28

    Sooner28 New Member

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    OK I think you are sort of onto something actually. God would need a way to communicate with his creation. But why is the Bible the way? Why not the Koran? They all claim to be divinely inspired. How do I choose between divinely inspired and purely man-made writings?
     
  25. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Remember His Omnipotent state of being. He could thereby communicate with man in any way that he deemed necessary... talking jackasses, talking snakes, burning bushes, angels (which means messengers), a voice coming from the heavens, and any other way that is even beyond the comprehension of man.


    Remember your premise.... and think in this manner... 'because God said it was'.

    Maybe it is also 'the way'.... then again, perhaps the authors of the Koran and other Holy books were not as accurate in their writings or perhaps those that interpret those writings are not as smart as they think they are. There are multitudes of possible ways to answer that question, but the only true way to receive an accurate interpretation is to rely on the Bible which God knew was going to eventually be referred to as 'the Word of God'. Try asking God for an explanation that would greatly surpass anything that I could say on that matter.

    Free will is a terrible annoyance, isn't it? You have the free will to pick and choose whatever meets your fancy. So, make up your own mind.... I did.
     

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