How to best deal with North Korea

And Ukraine, gave up it's nukes. Look what happened.
The Yanks the Brits and the Russians have invaded. Even got the EU in there now.

I'll offer you another comparison.

Ahfganistan.
For the sin of harbouring the sponsors of terrorism in America, Afghanistan is invaded. military action is taken against them. Punishment.

America.
For the sin of harbouring the sponsors of terrorism in Great Britain, America is not invaded. No military action is taken because they would utterly destroy us if we tried.

 

Your projection is not far wrong about my lack of intimate knowledge of japan

And unlike many people who post their credentials on the internet I take yours at face value

If japan would rather be bullied and blackmailed by north korea and become a vassel state to China than develop nuclear weapons then they truely do think diffently than I do

We'll see

 

It is alien thinking to them mate.

They don't think in these terms. They don't see the world in these terms.
Japanese people don't see any threat to them in China and North Korea.


None whatsoever. You are thinking about these things, and they are not thinking about these things.

Last time their society thought about such things... it went very tits up for them indeed. Changed their national psyche.
It is anathema for them to think in this way. Alien.

That is an American fantasy. A war fantasy. Japs don't share it.

I had this same conversation with Mrs Baff once. I might as well have been speaking to her in Dutch. She just doesn't share your world view. Doesn't recognise it's validity in any way. Spoke to me as if I was a three headed fish from Mars.


They see you telling them about the threat to them from China and Korea.
But they see no threat there beyond the one you bring.

Japanese people like China. Are very China friendly. Yours is an alliance of conquest, not an alliance of mutual interest.

 

In that case I agree with you Darth.

 

Actually, I would choose any of the first three options over this one...

 

As you say the japanese are very conformist

And the national opinion on nuclear weapons and the need for self defense could turn very quickly as it did from militarism to pacificism after WWII

You may be wrong about the japanese attitude toward the US also

We defecated them in a war but never conquored them

The emporior was treated with respect when many other countries wouild have hung him as a war criminal

 

Hey, being conquered by the US is about as nice a way to be conquered as it comes.
But being conquered isn't nice.

They are your vassal.
They ask you to leave, you do not leave.

They have a military alliance with you, one which they cannot refuse.

You aren't their guest you are their occupier. No one invited you to Japan. They resisted this to the point of utter annihilation.
You gave them 2 choices. Surrender, or die. They surrendered.

I assure you that you did conquer them by the way. We didn't do it all by ourselves.

 

Japan has never asked or demanded the US leave their country

If they made a formal request we would leave

 

No, you wouldn't.

You would do the same thing Bush did when his Iraqi puppet asked him to leave.
Claim it wasn't an official request and ignore it.

The tactic you use in Japan is to make the negotiation period longer than any single term of office. 5 years.
Same tactic you use in Korea and Taiwan I expect.

These countries have the same sort of political split. A two party system, one of which wants you out, one of which wants you in.

Last time this came up politically in Japan was a year ago.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...emerge-ginowan-elects-new-mayor/#.WYoLkJKWzwU

They also ask you to do stuff like not use Japanese bases to stage exercises vs Korea. But you don't listen to that either.

Under the terms of your current defence treaty, Japan does not have final say. (Unsurprisingly enough).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_Treaty_Between_the_United_States_and_Japan
They can ask, but you have to agree. Since you don't and you won't, there is little point asking.
All you have to say, for example, is "it's not secure, North Korea is a threat".

Article IV[edit]
This Treaty shall expire whenever in the opinion of the Governments of the United States of America and Japan there shall have come into force such United Nations arrangements or such alternative individual or collective security dispositions as will satisfactorily provide for the maintenance by the United Nations or otherwise of international peace and security in the Japan Area.

Realpolitik Mac, not good guys and bad guys.
I know you don't like to think of yourselves as an invader or occupier. But you still are one. You can use a different name if you prefer, make a semantic argument, but it's still the same thing.

We aren't angels.
We do dirty deeds.

The problem we have is to manage domestic opinion.
So we say stuff like "we didn't target civilians". (But we did).
We say stuff like "if they ask us to leave we will leave" (But we won't).

And this is for the domestic audience. To appease the liberals.
To appease those amongst us for whom "Empire" is word = Darth Vader.

 

You understand that it has to be a formal government request?

If the legal japanese government asked America to withdraw our forces we would comply

But I don't expect that to happen because japan cannot stand up to china or russia alone

 

Yes, absolutely they would develop nukes. They are a failed country. They can only exist thru blackmail and extortion. Without China's support they would have collapsed long ago. They invaded SK in 1950 and their goals haven't changed. Despite cries to prove their intentions here, it is readily available to those who wish to know and who care to look at their behaviors. A tree is known by the fruit it bares.

Dictators like him and his father/grandfather are BAD people wanting to do BAD things. Making the US out to be the bad guy makes you look foolish in the face of a united world against the aggression of NK. World vs you and a few others like you. But that doesn't faze you as you know the world is wrong and you have the moral high ground. You are one righteous dude.

 

The Japanese fear the Chinese and vice versa. There are too many still alive who remember. Same in regards to nuclear weapons. It will take a major turn of events to get the Japanese to rid themselves of generations of inbred horror and revulsion to atomic weapons if ever. That's understandable. But if faced with a nuclear NK which is a vassal state of China then Japan may turn to its leaders, which they are good at obeying and following, and change their constitution and obtains nukes for self defense. That's not a stretch.

I don't think the world will allow Kim to obtain nukes. That country is not stable enough to trust. He could be deposed and the replacement could end up being worse not better as many, including me, think. Trump is not going to allow it and the world will not condemn the US. We have carte blanche to employ any and all options. I hope it is not war but I'd rather that than allow NK to have deliverable nukes.

 

That has nothing to do with anything. There's no special design for nuclear weapons to account for weightlessness.

 

True. But I'm assuming that when North Korea invades South Korea, they will threaten to nuke us if we intervene conventionally.

And I'm assuming that they will carry out that threat when we do intervene.

When it comes to our missile defense systems people always unrealistically assume that it either has no chance of working or will be a 100% success. I think we have a good chance of downing some missiles, but probably not with a 100% success rate. So I think we could lose a couple cities.

Once a couple of our cities get nuked, then we'll retaliate in kind.

If I'm wrong and he doesn't invade South Korea then there won't be a war.

 

That doesn't mean it isn't a worthy goal.

There is one strategic advantage to ruthless annihilation though. If we make an example of someone who nukes us, the next person who thinks about nuking us might think again.

So you are counting the Marines too.

A very large torpedo might split a Marine carrier in half if it explodes right underneath the middle, but I believe that neither half would sink.

The trouble is the enemy has missiles too. If a warship is in range of a bomber's missiles, the bomber is in range of the warship's missiles.

China is expected to have 20-22 AEGIS-equivalent destroyers by 2020.

I forget by now. Probably because someone claimed that China wouldn't allow us to defend South Korea and I responded that we could handle China if they chose to go to war against us.

I remember at one point responding to a claim that the Chinese Navy was more powerful than the US Navy. Needless to say I disagreed with the claim.

The Air Force is already talking about expanding their B-21 buy to 145 bombers. I'm presuming that by the time this hypothetical war happens we will have all of those bombers.

If we have 145 (or more) B-21s and 20 B-2s, we could easily use some of them to destroy enemy surface ships with those new anti-ship missiles we're developing. And I don't see how the surface ships would have much defense against such an attack.

That's why I focused on stealth bombers. An AEGIS-equivalent destroyer might be able to detect and fire on a B-52.

 

How best to deal with NK??? Sign a secret deal that they can do anything they want and in return we use them as the destination for illegal eugenics experiments.

 

They can detect an F-22 without enough accuracy to shoot it down. They will not be able to detect a stealth bomber.

They'll get the problems worked out in time.

When they do, the F-35 should be able to outperform a F-117, outperform a ground-attack-configured F-16, and (in the "B" version) outperform a Harrier jump jet. That's not too bad.

If we can get people to stop trying to force it into an air-superiority role I think it'll be a pretty successful plane in the end.

 

If there were no US Army on their door they would invade and destroy South Korea.

There is no US occupation. South Korea asks us to stay and protect them because they do not want North Korea to destroy them.

Good grief. Not this nonsense again. The A-bombs were dropped on military targets.

And Japan did not offer to surrender until after both A-bombs had already been dropped.

Israel is neither expanding nor aggressive.

If we were to leave, North Korea would invade and destroy South Korea.

Funny how they keep asking us to stay and protect them.

We can win a nuclear war against any country other than Russia. (A nuclear war between the US and Russia would probably wipe out the human race.)

The entire world (not just the US, but all of humanity) has elected to place sanctions against North Korea because of their illegal possession of nuclear weapons.

The sanctions will be lifted when they give up their illegal weapons, and not one day sooner.

Just don't complain when we ruthlessly eradicate the people who attack us.

Nonsense. When they nuke us we will very much survive.

And then we will go commit genocide against them. And against anyone who tries to stop us.

When we're done killing we'll still be here and no one will be able to do anything about it.

The entire world has demanded that North Korea give up their illegal weapons.

The entire world has slammed North Korea with harsh sanctions until they give up their illegal weapons.

We can handle it.

North Korea's entire arsenal doesn't include 80 nukes.

 

I understand the sentiment, but people will whine at us if we don't wait for North Korea to make the first move. You just don't understand how tedious that sort of whining can get.

Don't worry. Once they make the first move we'll crush them.

 

It would be interesting to see the reaction if we were to station a couple hundred tactical nukes in South Korea.

 

If Kadaffy had wanted to live, he should have stopped being a ruthless murdering thug.

 

Russia has certainly invaded Ukraine. But not the rest.

 

The big problem is surviving reentry. But the cold vacuum of space can wreck warhead components if they are not protected.

 

Brits and Yanks are in anti Russian bit. Kiev's zone.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-to-expand-support-to-ukraines-armed-forces

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your...to-build-up-ukrainian-forces-training-center/

EU's got no army but has been trying to recruit them for membership.
It was the trigger for the war there. Half the country didn't want to join the EU.

 

It would certainly make it real for Kim - and China.