Part 39 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

The whole purpose of the Bible is to persuade us to turn away from Satan and turn our hearts and affections towards God. Satans war in heaven is now being waged here on earth. He drew a third of heaven to his cause and was cast out. We remained with heavenly Father by choice rather than follow Satan. Now we are in the second phase of our advancement towards salvation. And once again we face the choice of following either Satan or God. We chose right the first time. Will we do so again? Satan says there is no God, and that he himself does not exist. This fosters mediocrity, wherein he labors to corrupt us bit by bit in our unawares. God is away because it is crucial to our advancement, to the test and increase of our faith, to prepare us for eternal life and an inheritance in his kingdom. But he does send prophets and holy men for our good. And he sent his only begotten Son Jesus Christ to do that which we can't possibly do ourselves, to overcome the world, the adversary and death. He requires our involvement to maximize our growth and increase in the godly attributes folded into our spirits and beings. It is all for us, even his own suffering and dying.

 

Human beings aren't animals. That's why we don't hold animals to our laws. Humans have greater obligations. We are obliged to God in general.

 

Considering the OT was written by the Hebrews who believe/d Satan was Jahweh's messenger and tested mens faith with Jahwehs permission that seems a bit odd.
It is only in the NT that Satan is turned into Gods enemy - mainly by the fanciful story of Jesus' temptation. '40' days and Jesus was alone yet we know all about it. Jews accept/ed there faith was tested, and this was simply Matthew's way of showing that Jesus himself was tested as a Jew. Hebrews used picture language - as did Jesus in the NT.

 

Human beings evolved from the animal world. We have intelligence that has evolved with us. Many other animals have a great deal of intelligence - confined only by their living conditions. An experiment was done a long time ago between 2 small children and 2 small chimps. They were given the same task. The children failed where the chimps worked out that, working together, they could achieve the objective. The children obviously went on the higher things because of their living conditions and advantages. Had the chimps had the same advantages who knows. Many creatures are simply limited from further evolvement but show their intelligence in interaction with human beings.

 

Oh please. You remain a human being, and animals remain animals, as it has always been and always will be. Humans have always been humans, a fact supported by six to eight thousand years of recorded human history. To ignore that is to ignore tangible reality. Evolution is a fantasy.

 

Humanity has been round far, far longer than your imaginery 6-8 thousand years.

While the Qafzeh 9 and 10 skeletons are not the oldest human (Homo sapiens) remains ever discovered, they are near complete skeletons, making them the oldest human skeletons in the world. The skeletons were discovered in 1969 in Qafzeh Cave in Israel and date back to around 100,000 years ago. Several other human remains were also discovered in the cave.

Our ancient human ancestors developed language around 35,000 BCE, which is when the world’s oldest cave paintings were created. These early humans expressed their thoughts and recorded their lives and surroundings through pictures. Eventually, this evolved into written language which emerged with what are believed to be the world’s first true civilizations around c. 3500 – 3000 BCE.

 

You can follow speculation and inference. I'll stay with what's known of my own kind.

 

Pretty sure he said recorded history. Cave men didn't write, though their drawings were spectacular.

 

Your Kind? I thought you were human

 

But when did those 'cavemen' actually start 'writing'. Egyptian Hieroglyphics are a step between the cavemen and the ancient Egyptians. The cavemen 30.000 years ago drew therianthropes, and some - 20 - of these became Egyptian gods - Anubis, Bast, Horus, Ra etc. etc. Our history of Egypt as a 'civilisation' only goes back 5000 years. But before that there were people. Did the known Egyptian 'civilisation' originate these gods? I suggest that like religions it was a gradual process stretching back into the unknown past.

And what are the worlds first true civilisations? Deep in the Amazon forests are ancient settlements discover by space photography. 12,000 years ago the Sahara desert was a fertile land. What lies beneath the deep sands?

 

Great post. And I learned a new word today!

 

Yes, human civilization, with a 6-8 thousand year contiguous discernable history. Your hop scotching thru time over tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of years of nothingness, from this bone to that fossil, filling the unfathomable gaps of time with supposition, imagination, and must be rationalisms, is supremely reckless. Who is to say that God didn't take an old planet from elsewhere in the universe, resurface and repurpose it in its current place. And make man from the elements of a recycled planet filled with fossils and bones of former creations. Our obligations to repentance and accountability remain the same, whatever is beneath our feet. Most people can't remember what they did yesterday. But you vault over a million years as if it were nothing, talking about what happened on a daily basis from then till now. It is all imaginary.

 

Contiguous history goes alot further back than that .. but, what is the point of 6-8000 year claim .. your not arguing for young earth creation .. are you ?

 

What a waste of Gods time. Recycled planet? At least God would have gone down in this world of ours - recycling.

 

What if those caveman drawings were actually a form of primitive 'picture' language which we cannot translate. It took many years to Translate the Rosetta stone, though the basics were there. Interpretation was needed.

The English Alphabet contains many letters that were originally representative of things of the day - thousands of years ago. It has gone through different languages and often the original has been lost.

EG

Our letter 'A' was originally upside down and look like an animal with horns and antlers - in Semetic it was translated 'ox'.
'B' was borrowed from the Egyptian hieroglyphics and with the letter resting on its belly. In its original shape, it looked like a house with a door, a roof and a room. The symbol represented ‘shelter’ about 4,000 years ago.
‘Dalet’ was the name given to the letter D by the Phoenicians. It was originally a triangle up on one corner. 'Dalet' = door.

We need to take into account that we are thousands of years from the past. We don't think or act as our distant ancestors did. That's why books like the Bible need to be tested against the times and proven history in which they are written.

D also stands for Dinner, and as it is 13.00 hours here, I'm off to get Chickens and chips with baked beans.

 

"Christian In Name Only" So shouldn't the acronym be...CINO instead of CHINO? lol

Truth is, I'm a CBOLJ (Christian Believer Of Lord Jesus)

And you not so gifted one might just be the one who is a CHINO (Confused Hypocritical Imbecilic Nincompoop Official)

Look at yourself in the mirror giff and be honest, do you see a CHINO?

Ok thanks gift for your post.

 

I like CHINO better .. but what matters the acrynym for the deceiver Mitt -- the wolves in sheeps clothing - trying to usurp the authority of our Lord with man made dogma .. then claim to be a True Believer of the Lord ?

what is a believer of the Lord Mitt -- what is wrong with being a believer in the lord. You see how the deceptive language works .. any person can believe of the Lord .. believe in the existence in the Lord .. but, this is not belief in the teachings of Jesus .. not belief in the Lord.

That is not a Christian in my books .. a Christian is one who follows Jesus. We all can believers that the Pope exists ... even Muslims believe that .. but this does not make one a follower of the Pope .. and you are no follower of Jesus Brother Mitt .. seeking only to deceive in the name of Jesus.

 

What did Jesus preach? We really have no idea. The Gospel writers give us their version but it you look at what they say and compare it with Judaism it appears they simply add their own 'view'. Why would a Jew, having spent 8 years learning the Tanakh daily, suddenly turn from his learning and deny it. This would have put him at odds with the people as well as the Priesthood. He had no reason to deny what he had been told. A vicarious sacrifice was not needed in Judaism. Jesus would have practised Yamim Noraim followed by Yom Kippur. To suggest a vicarious sacrifice of himself would have made him an outcast among the people. In Gethsemane Jesus told them his way was not of the sword that they, and the Jews, were expecting. They ran. The rest of the story is simply a mixture of fact and fiction. Jesus was crucified, and there are problems with that story. We don't know the shape of the cross on which Jesus was crucified. It could have been one of several the Romans used. Neither Jesus or Simon would have carried a cross. These would have been at the place of Execution. Jesus hands would not have been nailed to any cross - if they used nails instead of rope. The flesh of the hands would not have held the weight of the body. It would have been the wrists. Dividing of clothing was normal amongst those officiating. Many men succumbed to death before the need of blood letting. The Catholic Via Dolorosa route has been changed several times down the centuries.
Today we can look at the OT and realise how it was made up. I was bought up to believe the Bible etc. but having looked outside the Bible with all the background knowledge, can see its fallibilities. Jesus had no such opportunities.
Jesus was crucified for falling foul of the Religious heirarchy - nothing more.

 

My goodness - had to stop here for a moment --- of course not .. but, we do heh heh heh in a way methinks !? (put learning of chess notation into bag of tricks)

Hmmmm -- Just as Adolf H. did not arise out of a vacuum - Neither did Jesus .. The story of Jesus is the story of various Messianic Figures and Messianic Tradition of the day.

Rome had recently taken "ownership" -- which was more like vassalship .. at the time the Jews were a coherent people .. having been through Persia - Greece - and now Roman Owners .. note that all the actors in the Play are Jewish Herod for example.

The smart empires when they came in .. let the people keep their customs in the vassal states .. appointed one of them over them .. but -- for some reason .. the Jews at this time were quite militant and really did have an apocalyptic tradition .. decided to take on the Romans in the far out provinces .. anyhow .. this happend some 40 years after the death of this "Messiah" "Annointed One" "Son of Man"
the main Davidic tradition was a leader to rise up and restore Zion to former glory .. but, there was also a suffering servent tradition which I supposed Jesus would get lumped into .. having completely failed in the other Path.

OK -- thats all nice .. but If there was such a dude - one of these Messiah's "Iesous" - what did the fellow have to say .. that inspired people so ?

I express similarly to you in this regard .. precious little to go on .. but, that said .. I believe there are some tidbits .... and do not restrict myself to canonical works -- Thomas for example -- the many wise sayings of this Jesus dude -- that someone wrote .. but for some reason did not get included ?? ..but would have been very well known ..

but I digress .. "Tidbits" -- one I have found == believe to have found -- is in the Sermon on the mount .. and I think .. if nothing else the entire religion can be summed up by this Sermon .. and the world would be better for it - putting everything else in the NT away --- don't need to know about the miracles from the Egyptian mystery school .. all of Paul's ramblings .. which make up half the NT and he never met the man .. didn't even convert until years after his death .. Its like .. Jesus waits 3 years .. "AND THEN" hits up Paul .. a Jew. but I digress

Sermon on mount -- while probably edited somewhat .. may well be a summary of sorts .. and perhaps even a real sermon .. but whomever wrote this Sermon ... is up there for the best one ever written . at least the Top 5 fo show !! ho ho ho !!

Now the tidbit is within ... Matt 7:12 " Do unto others as you be done you" - "This rule Sums up The Law and the Prophets"

Ye who have ears -- Did you want a friggen treasure map ? no bells and whistles go off when you read that Brother Trev ? .. can't be the first time I shown ya dis ?

Thats from Grand Daddy -- Rabbi Hillel - 110 BC - 10 AD .. The Bearded one on who's knee Jesus Sat - and on whose Tradition - Judaism Sat .. the two "Houses' House of Hillel and house of Shammai

The Path Hillel the one Jesus took mon. When asked by unbeliever to sum up Torah standing on one foot or some such thing .. Hillel say "Don't do to others what you hate - the rest is commentary - now go and learn "

Dat wat Jesus preach - both positive and negative form so bother not with that debate .. gives many example in the Sermon -- we know this rule as the "Golden one" .. and we call it the Golden one .. because it sums up everything .. Ye hear ? .. get them wax beads out yet ?? Gold ya hear .. Gold in them hills.

and not Just what the House of Hillel Preach ... Its what God Preach ... You wanted "The Logos" .. what be that ? and if it existed in 28 AD . did it not exist in 500 BC - Under the previous "Anointed one" King Cyrus or through Marduk .. Son of God 1800 BC the law code dictated to Hamurrabi .. the golden rule in his Law code .. we have Budda .. Confucious citing this rule to great degree .. and even Muhammad .. if you look hard you will see .. that God speaks in different languages .. smart fellow is she ..speaks through the ages to you .. and to me.

Love neighbor as self - Treat others like you would be treated - Don't do to others what you hate - let ye without sin cast the first rock - take log out of own eye ..

The US is founded on this Principle - this passage - as was the age of enlightenment .. the underpinning .. natural outcropping of the social contract .. if you are up for a Poly Sci lesson

Don't give up on the Logos -- emissary between God and Man .. its hard to find - and certainly not available at your command as the Fundies believe with their "Speaking in tongues" the Logos dial-up service you can watch on the televangelist show .. but a glimps once in a while we are given if lucky.. and if all else fails .. Psychedelics ! move to a state where Pot is Legal ... don't want you to be going to Jail like Paul now.. and don't listen to that guy . the Logos he is not. "You are to Love Hitler" .. ummmm Yeahhhh .. No Paul .. not today .. I would rather make Adolf Go away Romans 13 that kind of talk is not the Supreme one speaking through the ages .. no Logos action for Paul in that chapter.

 

• I love the story in Matthew 4:23 - 5:1. We have 'great multitudes' from several hundred square miles all gathering on the mountain's slope and in the valley. We have Jesus on the mountain top picking up his microphone to test the loudspeakers dotted round to check that people can hear him on the edge of the crowds a great many metres away and in the valley.
• Oh! They didn't have electrical gear? And the local villages had run out of food and drink. The local 'hotels' were over booked and the people had to camp out every night while travelling several days journey to hear Jesus.
• The sermon on the mount was written much later.

 

Someone said there are no prophecies in the Old Testament. You might want to check again. Or, how did the Hebrews know the Messiah was coming?

 

Really, that's the whole purpose of the Bible?

OK, then explain how Ezekiel 23:20 fits in with this grand scheme.

 

They didn't. It was their own belief that one day a Special Human would appear and lead them to victory. Jesus did not fit their belief and was rejected.

Strict Jews still believe this. Before his coming Elijah will return and this will be the sign of the 'Messiah's' near return. He will not be a heavenly being. At ceremonial dinners they prepare a special cup of wine called Elijah's cup - in case he turns up.

There is no reference to Jesus in the OT. Only what Christianity says. Prophecy is only relevant to the time. For Isaiah - or any OT 'prophet' to talk of events 800 years in the future would mean nothing to the people of the time. If someone told you the world would end 2823 you would be worried? It would concern you? What would your descendants in 700 years time think of the 'prophecy'. If, of course, the world is still around.

Someone once said that - given time - all 'prophecy' would come true. In other words 'there's nothing new under the sun'.

In Hebrew belief their 'Messiah' will lead them to victory over the nations of the world. These nations will then worship Yahweh and recognise the suffering of the Jews through the ages. Isaiah is given up to the Nation of Israel as Gods son. As expressed throughout the OT. It is this son (Nation) who will suffer as in Isaiah 53 - not Jesus. Remember that the Hebrews always wrote in picture language. Similar to the stories told by the Jewish Preacher - Jesus.

Christianity takes a chapter completely out of the context of the Book of Isaiah which is all about Israel. There are 4 Suffering Servant songs in Isaiah. 3 relate to Jahweh's son - Israel. Why should 1 (Isaiah 53) be completely different and relate to someone else.

Most 'prophecies' are simply astute summing up of situations and the consequences of ignoring dangers. Many are simply written at the time or after.

 

They story of Jesus was written years after his death. Is it possible that those writing the stories for the first time were aware of the prophecies and added details to the story of Jesus in order to make them match the prophecies that were already well known?

 

It reveals that some men in biblical times were ...

Muy hombre!