Post proof a god exists.

To follow up, a muffin is round because the muffin batter is baked in a pan that has round depressions. The characteristic "roundness" of a muffin is a REFLECTION of the roundness of that which surrounded the muffin.

Consider yourself. Then consider everything in reality that is not you, which we can call the "universe sine you" or USY. It is easily seen that your characteristics are necessarily a product of, or reflection of, characteristics that exist in the USY. You are the muffin, the USY is the muffin pan.

Now, consider humanity as the muffin, and universe sine humanity, USH, as the muffin pan. Every characteristic of humanity is a reflection of some characteristic in the USH, including consciousness.

It's necessary to recognize that consciousness is simply a characteristic, no different than physical shape. It is not some phenomenon that magically arose in the specially gifted humans. To think such a thing is to believe in magic, miracles, fairy tales, much like those who embrace mythic religious belief. A rational, logical, scientific-minded person should not hold that view. If consciousness is simply another characteristic humans possess, then it follows that we only possess it because it reflects that the universe has consciousness.

Based on this "proof," it is more scientifically reasonable to conclude that the universe is conscious than to believe we humans somehow originated this characteristic from nothing. I don't consider this so much as a proof of God, as a proof that if we are to assume that we cannot know whether the universe is conscious or not, the evidence weighs in favor of it being conscious.

There is a secondary "proof" that, gain, simply shows that to the rational, logical, scientific-minded person, it is more reasonable to believe in a universal consciousness than not. It is the assumption of similarity. It is axiomatic that we reason by analogizing the unknown to the known; we derive theories of the unknown based on the known. If we travel to a planet like Earth and find people that look like us on that planet (with minor cosmetic differences?), should we expect they are conscious? Should we expect they feel love and hate? Or should we expect they are biological machines with none of the same inner world we humans possess?

Even prior to communicating with such beings, we need to formulate some expectation of what they will be like in order to formulate a plan for how to commence interaction with them, even knowing our initial expectations might be wrong (so we also need to remain open to modifying our views as we gain direct experience). Now, the great flaw I see in many "scientifically minded" people is that they insist that the "scientific" approach is to disbelieve till there is proof. No proof these aliens love? Then we should disbelieve it and act as if they do not love till we have proof they do love. No proof they have a consciousness like us? Then we should disbelieve it and act as if they have no consciousness till we have proof.

The obvious flaw is that disbelief is simply another form of belief in a contrary state of affairs, also without proof. Disbelief in God is identical to belief that their is no God, without proof. That is NOT the correct objective or scientific view. The fact is, there are many situations that arise when humans are confronted with an unknown, and they must decide how to approach it and, to do that, they must create an expectation or theory of what the unknown is like WITHOUT proof. Yes, it is simply a working theory, and subject to correction, but that is enough.

I have reflected on this and I find the most logical, rational and scientific approach is the "rule of similarities," which means when faced with an unknown and before proof can be obtained, our working theory should be that the unknown is like the known. (Note, if this sort of reasoning had been applied 500 years ago, we would not have had Europeans insisting that Africans were sub-human and perhaps the development of a slave culture in America could have been avoided. Similarly nowadays we have many misguided conservatives assuming that gay people do not fall in love the way straight people do and, thus, marriage is not for them, which is contrary to the rule of similarities.)

The primary point is this: in the absence of proof, atheism is NOT dictated by the scientific method because atheism is simply another unproven belief in a state of affairs about which we have no proof. It is a major flaw in modern science that scientists erroneously embrace a "rule of difference" in the absence of proof or evidence. In other words, we cannot prove whether or not the universe as a whole is conscious, yet we are conscious. On the atomic level, our bodies are not that different, mostly empty space, lots of protons orbiting nuclei, etc. Looking at the human body at the atomic level, it would be hard to conceive of it as a conscious singularity. That is similar to our perspective on the universe. Anyway, in the absence of any evidence whether the universe is conscious, the scientific working theory should be based on the rule of similarities, that we'll start from the expectation that the universe is like us, and since we are conscious, the universe is conscious. That is a more rational approach than embracing atheism which is founded on an implied and misguided "rule of difference."

And, besides, we DO have evidence for a conscious universe, which is our own consciousness, and the observation of the muffin and the muffin pan. Characteristics do not come from nothing, they reflect the larger surrounding reality. So there's that.

Ken

 

I should add that it is entirely possible to get first-hand observation of the conscious universe because we are linked to it, like neurons on the brain of God. The connection exists at our mental "center." Picture a dart board as your consciousness, and think of the bullseye as your mental center. If you were in your mental center you would actually perceive your connection to a higher consciousness. In fact, for 99% of us we are on some outer ring of the mind -- the superficial ego voices are running the show, and they swim about somewhere between the triple ring and double ring. This is why buddhists and taoists talk about looking inward for answers, for god. It's a literal map, not just some cutesy spiritual nonsense. You need to move your mind to its center, and you can know god -- not some dogmatic, religious "old man with a beard in heaven" sort of god, but the true universal consciousness that connects all things.

In my personal life, I was a confirmed atheist till one day I had the "muffin pan" insight, and realized it made more sense to believe in a conscious universe. I then practiced meditation and after about 2 months, I had a moment of zazen, enlightened awakening to my connection to the universal consciousness. When you feel it, you know it's true based on direct experience, there is no better proof than that, at least for the self.

I know the ego of most people -- particularly smart, scientifically minded people -- does not like to think they are not at their mental center. Rather than consider that ego-bruising possibility, they reject the notion and do not follow the simple steps needed to look inward to see for themselves the truth of this.

Ken

 

Although a person who is well educated upon a level way above the norm is capable of understanding using Advanced Mathematics and aspects of Quantum Mechanics as well as Cosmology pertaining to Universal Space-Time Geometry can use such knowledge to calculate and represent the concept of NON-LINEAR TIME....this is the extent that such a person can form an understanding as the Human Brain is not yet sufficiently evolved for any visulization of such things.

Understand that what you have been discussing is dedicated to the premise that there is such a thing as a BEGINNING AND END as far as Time or Space-Time.

People tend to only understand things as having a beginning and an end but mathematically and using Quantum Mechanics we know this is not actually true.

In REALITY.....the nucleuses of all Atoms are comprised of Hadrons...ie...Protons and Neutrons and this nucleus is surrounded by Electrons in orbital fields.

The Electrons are Quantum Particle/Wave Forms of Energy and as well the Protons and Neutrons are completely comrised of Quantum Particle/Wave Forms of Energy as well such as Quarks, Gluons, Higgs Bosons....etc.

They are called Quantum Particle/Wave Forms because they exist as BOTH PARTICLE AND WAVE.

As a Particle and Wave Form the Electrons existing in Orbital Fields surrounding the Atomic Nucleus EXISTS AT ALL POINTS OF POSITION SIMULTANIOUSLY WITHIN THAT ELECTRON ORBITAL FIELD....and exist in an NT...NO TIME....state of position as a Particle.

This shows us that TIME....is intrinsically connected with SPACE....thus Space-Time as one cannot exist without the other.

It is not like the Electrons are flying around the Atomic Nucleus as great speed because THEY ARE NOT.

As well Electrons have a Micro-Mass...unlike Photons which are Massless.

Photons or LIGHT travels at 186,282 Miles per Second.....Electrons travel at the rate at which whatever they are conducted through allows them to travel but as far as the Electrons existing in Electron Orbital Fields these Electrons are existing as Particle and Wave Form thus......THE ELECTRONS EXIST AT ALL POINTS OF POSITION AT THE SAME TIME ALONG THAT ORBITAL FIELD.

The same thing in a Photon WAVE PACKET as the Photon exists at all points of position at the same time along the Frequency Wave or Curve.

This means that in REALITY....there is no beginning or end....there simply IS....in Non-Linear Time.

AboveAlpha

 

I'm not saying that there is evidence that people's faith is false or not real, as I mentioned in my previous post. People are obviously having tangible experiences that aren't necessarily evident outwardly or that can be measured by science. Just saying there isn't scientific evidence available and therefore their faith is solely based on tangible internal factors. These experiences are very real for people I suppose and not something I could argue with especially people who have had amazing turn arounds and fortunes in their lives. The supposed spiritual realm is where everything happens and if this can't be discounted by science I suppose there is still a possibility that God is real.

 

Of course a possibility a GOD exists.

It's just that Probability goes down when you narrow and specify exactly what such a GOD would be.

As example the Probability that a GOD exists as advertized in the Bible, Torah and Koran although not ZERO% exists at 1 in 10^178th.

A STATISTICAL IMPOSSIBILITY exists when Probability exceeds 1 in 10^150th.

When a GOD is less defined as to what it might be Probability of a GOD existing dramatically increases.

AboveAlpha

 

im kinda familiar with the space-time concept u mention (not with the rest tho), but i don't see really how that is relevant for the argument. also i intentionally avoided words like "before", because of that concept, can't really see how its a premise here; this is the premise " if we also believe that nothing existed forever/ something who's existence had no beginning" or in other words that there is a beginning; how cudnt there be if the universe is just 13 b years old? i know there is no "before" the beginning, also i know that if the universe is 13 billion years old (suppose exactly 13 b years) that u cant ask: what was 13,1 b years ago? there is no 13,1 b years ago... but there shud be a beginning - a first event, or do u disagree? didn't the clock at some point started to run?

if u say: in reality there is no beginning - aren't u saying: i believe that there is something who's existence had no beginning, (oh and by the way, it is 13 b years old)...seems odd to me...i wud claim that if something exists for a certain amount of time, it had a beginning

also, what do u think about the rest of the argument, or do u think its useless for the things u mentioned?

ps: i also never heard the idea that we can't use the word "beginning" when discussing the creation of the universe (seems curious to me)...if u rather wanna say "there simply is", i guess the question wud then be: why was/is it? (changes nothing to the problem with the law of causality imo)

 

FYI - This is an english language forum.
Not personal text message language.
Just saying if you want to be taken seriously and have people read your posts.

 

i admit that this paragraph is even for my standards quite poor, sorry for that. not a native speaker btw.

but feel free to ignore me or ask me anything unclear to u.

hav a g´d one

 

Quantum Mechanics dictates that our Universe is but one of an Infinite in Number amount of Divergent Universal States of Reality in a Multiversal System.

There is a great deal of evidence for this although it has not yet been conclusively proven.

HOWEVER....this concept of which at first there was the MANY WORLDS THEORY and now UNIVERSAL THEORY which is a much more detailed and comprehensive expansion of Many Worlds....might yet not be conclusively proven BUT WE HAVE DEVELOPED ACTUAL PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS BASED UPON IT!!!

And NOTHING say's something is real than a Practical Application.

As I posted at the beginning of my post you read the Human Brain is not currently evolved enough to visualize or conceptualize Non-Linear Time and it takes the use of Advanced Higher Mathematics to do this and as I have learned several times on this forum my posting of such equasions is a waste of time because no one is going to understand them.

BUT....I can offer you this.

NON-EXISTENCE IS IMPOSSIBLE.

How can we be certain of this?

Because I am typing this right now.

Understand our Universe IS NOT A CLOSED SYSTEM.

The Big Bang originated and was expelled from what is known as a WHITE HOLE.

And every WHITE HOLE is connected to a BLACK HOLE which exists in another Universal reality.

Thus when all those Quantum Particle/Wave Forms that were ejected from the White Hole causing the BIG BANG they were in a super excited state which eventually slowed in it's vibrationary state to become Hydrogen thus Plasma.

Point is as this matter expanded outward it was creating Space-Time and it is STILL creating Space-Time as Dark Energy is causing all Galaxies to increase in velocity ourwards away from the central point of the Big Bang.

It is important for a person to understand THE UNIVERSE IS NOT INFINITE.....BUT THE MULTIVERSE IS.

Our perspective of distance within Space-Time is a very limited ability of perspection and we see things as having a past, present and future.....but this is a LINEAR TIME CONCEPT AND SENSORY OBSERVATION.

This is all the Human Brain can percieve at this time in our Evolution but eventually IF Humanity survives long enough....we will evolve to a point where we will able to detect, understand and percieve PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE CONCURRENTLY!!!!

AboveAlpha

 

This is an astonishingly good post.

If you were to read chapter 5 of Christian Andreason's book about his NDE you might be amazed how similar what you write here is to what he also reports being shown while he was in the out of the body state.


http://www.allaboutchristian.com/spirituality/

The time may come when all of this may seem almost as simple as the question……. CAn STephen Spielberg produce a film?

Could Mr. Spielberg use the first five minutes of that film…… and later spin off a totally different film with a very different ending?

Is there anybody in this universe - multiverse who has technological capability greater than that used by Stephen Spielberg?

 

Thank you for your nice compliment.

It is possible that there indeed might exists a COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS....and some people call this the GAIA PRINCPLE.

However the idea that a GOD exists as advertized in the Torah, Bible and Koran is an extremely low Probability and so low that this Probability exists at 1 in 10^178th which is lower in Probability than the 1 in 10^150th that represents a Statistical Impossibility.

If a Collective Consciousness exists which some people might label a GOD....it would not be anything like what most people think a GOD would actually be.

The thing is for a GOD to exist as advertized in the Torah, Bible and Koran and be all powerful and know all and know past, present and future this would require such a GOD having a Data Storage Capacity upon a Quantum Level equal in size to an entire Universal reality.

If a Multiverse is in play such a storage capability would not be possible.

I am at a loss for the whole Steve Spiel question.

AboveAlpha

 

In a way….. I think that you are onto something extremely important here.

The Bible and the Koran seem to imply a G-d of Abraham who almost favour one particular group of people and ……… the priests among those groups from their scriptures would almost think that they have a privileged position with that Creator!

You are correct……….. A Creator who evolved and learned over eternity is extremely unlikely to engage in favouritism or allow any group of people to virtually control Him/ Her !


http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html#a09

 

Taking my experiences into account I am fairy certain that Spirituality exists.

However I am also fairly certain that what most people believe to be a GOD existing does not.

The reality is most likely much more grand and complex than any Human could ever imagine nor could any person understand such a reality while living.

Understand any possible existing Spiritual existence of a person would NOT have any concerns of the Flesh.

Thus all these Religions that discuss reward and punishment after death as they advocate the proverbial MANSION IN THE SKY for those of Faith is simply concepts and guesses by people who have very little understanding of such things.

AboveAlpha

 

When I first ran into the Dr. Chet Snow research which had actually been initiated by Helen WAmbach Ph. D., I had no idea how in the world it could possibly fit into my view of the universe and the Creators plan.

Then finally… after perhaps six or seven years it hit me…… time was not limited to being one straight line and Ezekiel 37 was not merely a one time event.

http://www.baproducts.com/chetmap.htm

After this idea hit me then the unusual map drawn from the accounts of the future progressions of 750 people from 1980 - 1983 made sense.

Basically…… a technology so great exists that duplicates seem to have been made of absolutely everybody who lived from 1983…… and all of us seem to be making significantly better choices than were made from the first time line that spun off from that beginning.

It is much like a Super Intelligence has gotten into the business of reality film production and each of us……. are stars…… and everything about our lives is extremely well know to huge numbers of beings who exist in the higher dimensions of space - time.

If evidence exists that intelligence can exist in fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth dimensional space time…… then it is hard to imagine intelligence in some form not existing in ninth, tenth and eleventh space - time energy as well….. but……. yes………. That Being - Beings would be thinking at an astonishingly high level.

http://www.politicalforum.com/humor...2000-election-but-negates-global-dimming.html
In alternate time line Mr. Gore wins the 2000 election but negates Global Dimming....

 

Yes…… a Creator who has existed from eternity would look at sin and evil very differently than we humans do!

http://www.allaboutchristian.com/spirituality/

 

Dennis.....Universal Space-Time exists at a MINIMUM of 10-D....and this could be even higher.

AboveAlpha

 

What does any of that have to do with the title of this thread?

 

I tried my best to answer this in a blog that I wrote up several years ago.

Basically........ if fundamental energy is as energetic as theoretical physists assert that it is then how could some form of circuitry......NOT.... .somehow evolve in fundamental energy?

Isn't what we think of as our identity and personality to at least some degree rather like electricity flowing in a series of circuits?

www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/

 

After reading a truly strange...… but brilliant article several years ago I have had a serious bias toward Bosonic String Theory with its 26 dimensions simply because twenty six is a larger number than 18?!

For the record........ I wrote a SAT back in 1980 in order to apply to Ambassador College in Big Sandy, Texas and I was told that my IQ was 118. I am well aware that I am not worthy to be involved in this discussion at this level...… but I deeply appreciate your putting up with me in spite of my deficiencies!

http://www.cs.utah.edu/~spiegel/kabbalah/jkm018.htm

18 Planes of Existence

 

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