Question concerning West Bank

I don't believe that for a second.

There are no people on Earth who wouldn't be upset if their land and government were handed to some other government without even so much as being asked.

Plus, Israel is a JEWISH state. The idea that such a state could be equal for non-Jews is ridiculous. It denies the very meaning of BEING a Jewish state.

As for today, Israel rules much of Palestine under its own military law - in which Palestinians have ZERO representation or legal recourse.

American went to WAR when we had good lives, but didn't have enough representation.

Why would you think that other humans wouldn't do that when they get ZERO representation?

 

But there are Arab seats in the Israeli Knesset. The Arabs have more elected seats there than in much of the Arab world which is mostly run by dictators.

 

@WillReadmore you didn't answer any of my questions. You didn't understand some of my questions. Your reply shows a surprising lack of knowledge about even the recent history of the region. I'll ask again, what are your sources?

 

Oh, I know. I'm so much more ignorant than you. I appreciate you keeping me informed on that.

What question are you asking about? You can't ask for sources for my posts without at least identifying the post as well as your question about it.

As for King David and his conquests as well as God's demand that King Saul before him slaughter the people of Beersheba, I'm referring to the Bible.

I know the biblical story isn't necessarily seen as perfectly historically accurate, partly because it is the view of the victors. But, it is still important as a modern religious source.

As I pointed out, there may be other Biblical sources that are used by devout Jews in seeing the entire region as being part of their birthright.

Remember I noted that you could correct me if there are more important claims that devout Jews depend on.

 

Am I detecting hurt pride in your words? You know, the pride that...well, never mind.

Let's start with your basic premise: the existence of a Palestinian state prior to 1948, inhabited by an indigenous non-Jewish self-governing Palestinian nation. Source?

I can't say what devout Jews think. Different Jews, devout or not, think differently. There are communities of devout Jews who think Israel shouldn't exist at all. Right now, we have extreme-right devout Jews in power, but devout Jews can also be left-wing. Jews, devout or not, are not a hive, and neither are Israeli Jews.

 

LOL - I don't have a PhD in history nor am I steeped in the Jewish religion. Why could you possibly confuse that with pride?

I'm not actually interested in that.

A state was carved out post WWII. There have been wars, especially since those who lost large amounts of territory without even being consulted were as upset as you and I would be. There have been determinations of the border.

Now, it is today.

OK, but I'm asking what is the justification that Israel holds for believing that it can bulldoze the homes of Palestinians, steal their land and agriculture, steal their water rights and rule them in Israeli military law without the representation of Palestinians who live there???

So far, my searches show numerous analysts identifying the claim of historic rights - not specifically legal claims, but the view that it is important to Israel that they take their full birthright.

Do you disagree? I don't have reasonable access to the religious claims that Israeli's far right ultra orthodox members have today.

Netanyahu claims he favors a two state solution, but according to the Times of Israel he says that knowing that he will never allow a state of Palestine to exist. During the last Bush attempt at negotiations, Netanyahu demanded that Israel be allowed to continue building new and expanding settlements DURING BORDER TALKS! Obviously, that is an impossible demand. Today, he talks about Israel having permanent military control over a future state of Palestine - another demand that is preposterous. Today, he claims that he won't negotiate, because Palestine recognizes Israel as a legitimate and permanent state with which Palestine will live in peace. But, Netanyahu demands that Palestine recognize Israel as a JEWISH state - which essentially would mean that Palestine recognizes Israeli apartheid against the Palestinians who live in Israel and have Israeli citizenship. BUT, the views he expresses to his far right coalition have them in agreement.

Do you have reason to disagree?

I see the claim of security concern. But, that's clearly ridiculous, as the settlements can not be considered a positive move in favor of Israeli security. Also, the Wall was from the start built around lowlands important to agriculture, not in a manner important to security. His claimed solution to his security concern is to have Israel have military control across any future state of Palestine so they can assure that Palestine is adequately disarmed. NO state is ever going to agree to that. It's not what "state" even means.

Do you have reason to disagree?

 

My pride is in America.

The problem I have is that the USA supports the humanitarian atrocities of Israel against Palestinians.

This is absolute against what America claims to stand for - rule of law, equal treatment, property rights, representation (which we saw as so important that it cause the American Revolution), etc.

I want the USA to stop supporting these acts that are so against what we stand for.

Our influence is seriously reduced by our bald faced hypocrisy.

 

If America was ruled by an extreme right wing Christian evangelist regime, I would be very concerned.

Are you concerned about Israel's current government?

Thanks,

 

Yes, but that does not mean that Arabs or Christians are equal in the eyes of the Israeli government.

For example, Arabs/Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are not free to live where they want to live.

 

I will agree with you about the far right Christian fanatics. They are as bad as the far left socialist, climate change fanatics who have their own religion.

The trouble is the rock throwing, suicide bombing Arab fanatics give strength to the right wing Israeli governments. The natural political tendency for many Jewish people seems to be liberal. If the Palestinians had had the sense to work with that, they would be in a much better place today. Listening to hate mongers, like the leadership in Iran, is a dead end.

 

Many states have been carved out post WWII.

Your main argument is that Jews conquered a land belonging to another, self-governing nation. This is, by the way, the mantra of anti-Zionists everywhere. It's the excuse they use to justify hatred of Zionists and rejection of the Jewish state. When everything else fails, because reality is not anti-Zionists' friend, this narrative is their last resort. You used it too.

Israel doesn't steal land, or agriculture (whatever that means), or water rights. These are anti-Zionist myths. Unless, of course, you can prove your assertions.

As I already told you, bulldozing illegally built buildings, or terrorist's homes, is perfectly legal. According to international law, Jordanian law still applies in area C, and Jordanian law includes Regulation 119.

You know what's funny? When the Israeli government wanted to extend Israeli law to Area C, all the world barked "annexation" unanimously, even though nobody thought of annexing area C. Extending Israeli law would have terminated the use of old Jordanian laws and of military law. But the world growled, and the Israeli government yielded.

Palestinians in area C are represented by the Palestinian Authority, they have the right to vote in Palestinian elections (when and if such miracle happens, probably sometime in the 9347875th century). Health and education are provided by the PA. Most Palestinians live in areas governed by the PA, relatively few live in area C.

Birthright is not a far right ultra Orthodox religious claim. It's a Jewish claim. Even some of the far left here are Zionists and believe in the birthright.

Birthright is anchored in international law, actually. The San Remo document of 1920, the document of the Mandate, article 80 of the UN charter, customary international law (uti possidetis juris). The far right ultra Orthodox may have their own religious claims, that doesn't make birthright a religious claim.

I can't possibly answer all this in one post. It would be a very, very, very long post. I hope I'll find the time to debunk your assertions. Let's agree to disagree for now.

 

Yes, I'm concerned about Israel's current government. Most Israelis are, even among those who supported the far right before the elections.

 

There is no Palestine. Palestine disappeared in the 1920's. Israel took Gaza and the west bank lands in the six day war from Egypt and Jordan, not from Palestine. So you should know where to put your "effective definition."

 

I have always felt that if or when there is a WW 3, it would be because of events in the Middle East. That's why I have followed the conflicts of that troubled region for over 50 years and spent 10 - 11 months walking and hitch-hiking throughout Iraq, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon and was on my way to Israel & Egypt when the '73 War broke out.

Re:

In addition to my fascination with archeology and because of Western media's pro Israel bias I went to the Middle East to see for myself what was going on and hear both sides of the story from the unfortunate people affected by America's one-sided, pro Israel policies.

There were no "rock throwing, suicide bombing Arab fanatics..." until the invasion of foreign Zionist terrorist gangs who massacred, raped and mutilated Palestine's native residents with impunity.

Contrary to common belief, the Arabs and Jews have not always been in conflict. (1) In fact the Jews and Arabs got along very well until the invasion of genocidal Zionist terrorist gangs many of whom were trained and armed by Germany's Nazi Party(2).

Conditions further worsened when the British abrogated their McMahon Agreement that promised all of Palestine to the Arabs for their aid in fighting the Ottoman Turks(3).

It was the subsequent Balfour Declaration that essentially guaranteed centuries of conflict by violating the McMahon Agreement and giving already long inhabited Arab land, homes and farms to a recently arrived Jewish minority.

Several wars and decades later, the long tormented and repeatedly betrayed Palestinian Arabs are enduring one of the oldest and most brutal criminal occupations in modern history.

While I fully support Israel's right to exist, I cannot condemn Palestine's native residents for resisting a criminal and internationally condemned occupation / ethnic cleansing. They are doing exactly what I would do and you would do if hate filled foreign ""Settlers" destroyed our home, stole our land, murdered our family members and herded us into an open air prison with no hope for relief or justice.

Can you think of any brutally occupied people, throughout history, that have not resisted their ethnic cleansing? (4)


Thanks,







(1) “Top Ten Myths about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict”
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/06/17/top-ten-myths-about-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/

EXCERPT "Myth #1 – Jews and Arabs have always been in conflict in the region.

"Although Arabs were a majority in Palestine prior to the creation of the state of Israel, there had always been a Jewish population, as well. For the most part, Jewish Palestinians got along with their Arab neighbors. This began to change with the onset of the Zionist movement, because the Zionists rejected the right of the Palestinians to self-determination and wanted Palestine for their own, to create a “Jewish State” in a region where Arabs were the majority and owned most of the land.

The British Hope-Simpson report of 1930 similarly noted that Jewish residents of non-Zionist communities in Palestine enjoyed friendship with their Arab neighbors. “It is quite a common sight to see an Arab sitting in the verandah of a Jewish house”, the report noted. “The position is entirely different in the Zionist colonies."CONTINUED


(2) “Zionism and the Third Reich”
https://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_Weber.html

EXCERPT “In cooperation with the German authorities, Zionist groups organized a network of some forty camps and agricultural centers throughout Germany where prospective settlers were trained for their new lives in Palestine. Although the Nuremberg Laws forbid Jews from displaying the German flag, Jews were specifically guaranteed the right to display the blue and white Jewish national banner. The flag that would one day be adopted by Israel was flown at the Zionist camps and centers in Hitler's Germany.

Haganah-SS collaboration even included secret deliveries of German weapons to Jewish settlers for use in clashes with Palestinian Arabs. " CONTINUED


(3) "The McMahon Agreement"
http://www.historylearningsite.co.u...ddle-east-1917-to-1973/the-mcmahon-agreement/

EXCERPT "The McMahon-Hussein Agreement of October 1915 was accepted by Palestinians as a promise by the British that after World War One, land previously held by the Turks would be returned to the Arab nationals who lived in that land. The McMahon-Hussein Agreement was to greatly complicate Middle East history and seemed to directly clash with the Balfour Declaration of 1917." CONTINUED


(4) “Nearly half of Israeli Jews believe in ethnic cleansing, survey finds”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...nians-wake-up-call-survey-finds-a6919271.html

EXCERPT “Almost half of Jewish Israelis believe Arabs should be "expelled or transferred" from Israel, a survey has found.

A study carried out by the Pew Research Centre found that around one in five adults questioned “strongly agreed” with the controversial statement, which amounts to ethnic cleansing under some definitions.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica describes the act as “attempting to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic group”, while a United Nations report in 1993 additionally specified the use of “force or intimidation”.CONTINUED

 

Palestinians have no legal recourse. They have no representation in the foreign military force that rules much of Palestine. When Israel comes to bulldoze their homes, etc., that is going to result in violence - just like it would in any other part of the world. President Abbas has been a critical resource to Israel for working to reduce violence, but the area he is allowed to govern is a dwindling subset of Palestine.

The right way forward involves the rule of law. And, that is the direction Abbas has consistently insisted is the ONLY direction for a solution.

Today, the USA works to ensure that the UN is not involved and that Israel is free to do what it will.

The President Abbas direction of opposing the use of violence and restricting to UN involvement and legal means IS failing.

A recent example is that when Abbas appealed to the WHO, the USA told the WHO that if they accepted an application from Palestine the USA would defund them.

Terrorism is not the answer, obviously.

However, the USA is actively blocking the possibility of a legal resolution, and the idea that such is even possible is a tough sell to Palestinians who have been losing everything they have to Israel's taking over the last 20 years, let alone the rest of history.


So, what would you suggest as a solution??

 

True, but not by conquest.

Even with Russian administration, Germany remained as Germany.

I know you are close to this issue, closer than I am.

However, one can not look at issues such as this from the point of view of hate.

What I've stated is Israel's military expansionism. I asked YOU if there is a justification other than Zionism.

The Israeli military, which issues building permits, will not issue building permits to Palestinians in Palestine.

And, the expansion of the Wall across Palestine is clearly designed to capture agricultural land for Israeli settlers.

Nobody has the right to capture the land where their forefathers lived thousands of years ago.

That idea of birthright is the most silly concept imaginable.

And, the question of whether it is religious or secular may be important to you, but it is absolutely irrelevant to questions of whether war is a legitimate method of stealing that land from those living there.

This gets complicated only when one gets confused by ancient history and religion.

And, that complexity gets added for the PURPOSE of continuing the policy of humanitarian atrocity.

 

I really think you need a better measure of American principles of government than that.

And, remember that those who created the current coalition government expressly rejected any participation by non-Jews.

 

You're obviously unaware that most Palestinians live in areas governed by the PA, not by Israel. They have both representation and legal recourse, as much as possible in a dictatorship.

The Palestinians in area C, the area under Israeli control, can, and often do, appeal both civil and military decisions in Israel's High Court of Justice. Like this:
https://hamoked.org/document.php?dID=Updates1785

How exactly is Abbas working to reduce violence? How is his pay-for-slay policy, rewarding terrorists and their families with monthly salaries for killing Israelis, helping to reduce violence?

What do you mean, dwindling territory? How is the territory of the PA dwindling, exactly?

Have you ever read the Oslo Accords? Obviously not. You should. We can't talk about rule of law if you have no idea what the law is.

Did you know that the PA has initiated proceedings against the US at the ICJ? Why would the US support the PA, then?

What exactly have the Palestinians lost to Israel's taking over the last 20 years?

What do you call a legal resolution? UN resolutions don't generate international law, and are not binding. Did you know that?

 

This is disingenuous, as your cite (which was hidden) points to the extreme minority status of left wing Jews.

Besides, left wing opposition to Netanyahu includes his domestic policy. Netanyahu's political career has been marked by his disinterest in domestic policy, and the result has been a political issue.

You can't pitch this minority as an attempt to detach Judaism from the expansionist war against Palestine.

In fact, it documents the rightward religious shift.

 

I'm interested in today.

What have they lost??? Look at the border of Palestine. Look at the ever expanding route of the Wall. Look at the ownership of the Jordan River, on the OPPOSITE SIDE of Palestine! Look at the ever expanding settlements, built on the best agricultural land.

Look at their government - which doesn't even apply to all Palestine, as Israeli military law covers much of the state of Palestine. When settlers attack, what court may Palestinians appeals to? When homes get bulldozed, what government may Palestinians appeal to?

So, now you berate the UN. But, the issue is ISRAEL, not the UN.

You can claim that past agreements are flawed.

But, that isn't justification for continuing humanitarian atrocities against the people of Palestine.

 

I'm not talking about Europe, though the Republic of Moldova is a good example of a European country created due to military conquest during WWII.

Did you know that Pakistan (including Bangladesh, at the time) was created in 1947, for Indian Muslims, by the British? The British still ruled India at the time. Both Pakistan and Bangladesh owe their existence to the British conquest of India. The establishment of the new state created around 15,000,000 refugees. Where's the special UN agency for those poor souls, I wonder.

Did you know that Jordan was created by the British for their ally the Sharif of Mecca from the Banu-Hashim clan, on land conquered by the British during WWI? The British gave the Banu-Hashim clan of the Arabian Peninsula thrones in Syria and Iraq too, but the Hashemites lost them. Jordan gained independence in 1946.

Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq, were created by the French and the British on territories conquered from the Ottoman Empire in WWI. Only Arabs received new states on former Ottoman territories outside of Palestine, even though there are sizable non-Arab populations in the region.

Did you know that Saudi Arabia was created by the Saudi tribe through violent conquest of Nejd and Hejaz, in the early 30s of last century?

Details about Israel's military expansionism would be greatly appreciated. From where I stand, Israel lost a lot of territories over the years, in return for a very cold and shaky peace.

Israel is fighting for its existence. It's self defense, not military expansionism.

I'll answer the rest of your post later,

 

Those do not form excuses for Israel's actions today.

The USA was instrumental in forming the UN as a means of establishing order on certain behavior between peoples, such as what you mention.

Israel and the USA signed that law.

Palestine is not a threat to Israel's existence.

Palestine recognizes Israel's right of permanent existence as has been stated for a couple decades. They have stated that their objective is to live in peace beside Israel.

The acts of war against Gaza and West Bank absolutely do qualify as war by Israel on Palestine.

The attempts to claim that the problem is that these people don't like that war and thus fight back with ridiculously ineffective weapons is NOT AN EXCUSE for continued internationally recognized Israeli acts of war.

 

You mean how the Muslims persecuted the Jews right after the 1948 War?

Imposing Nuremberg-like laws, stealing their property, their citizenship, their right to hold a job, their right to have a bank account, their right to travel?

 

Well, here is from todays news:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=ed170697dbdc446dac3e938c6ff0d12b&ei=24

So it looks that even Middle Eastern Islamic council is not blaming only Israel.

 

This is news only in that someone in Islam declared a fatwa.

Palestine has been strongly opposed to Hamas for many years.

President Abbas attempted to end the Hamas government of Gaza by forming a unity government that would have made Hamas a small minority in a government with no funding from the one serious source of revenue in Gaza - border crossing fees. It would also have put the unity government in charge of aid distribution to the public after disasters (such as the repeated Israeli military assaults on hospitals, electricity, water, etc).

Hamas has been at a low point and was willing to join that government.

ISRAEL worked hard to defeat the unity government of Abbas, the result being that Hamas continues in Gaza.

AND, let's remember that Palestine has been dedicated to peaceful resolution for a couple decades. The Abbas government works WITH Israeli forces against violence.

The USA has strongly supported Israel in their continuation of war against Palestine.

Even at the UN, the USA has used its economic and political power to ensure Palestine gets no voice in its attempts to get the UN interested in a negotiated peace.