Question concerning West Bank

FACT: there were many instances of Muslim persecution of the Jews LOOOOONG before Zionism ever existed.

And after 1948, the Arabs had a wonderful excuse to fully express their hatred of the Jews by stripping their citizenship, right to work, right to own and buy land, right to have a bank account, right to travel, in Algeria, Egypt, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Libya, etc.

Zionism seems to have been a great excuse for the Muslims to treat the Jews the way they always wanted to but never had the excuse.

 

Zionists would absolutely not accept that name for their persecutors throughout history, of course.

The idea that past persecution is justification for humanitarian atrocities today is not legitimate at ANY level - not in your city, not in the USA, not between nations.

Past atrocities do not justify continuing atrocities.

 

A Palestinian murdered RFK. There is no justification for that.



When the Palestinians love their children more than they hate the Jews, there will be peace - Golda Meir

 

Never said there was.

Just dont make believe that the Muslims LOVED the Jews before 1948.

They certainly did not. They only hated us a little less than the Christians did.

 

Killed, because JFK fanatically supported the war of the Israeli Jews against Palestine.

Yitzhak Rabin was killed by a Jew, for his support for peace.


Eat your heart out Golda Meir, who was a member of the Knesset when they passed laws banning Arab civilians to return home for being Arab so Jews like her could thieve their property.

 

Jews had no trouble in obtaining high ranks in the Muslim Ottoman Empire, where they found refuge from the Christians. And it were the Christians who broke up the Ottoman empire in the early 1900's. I've told you before, Ronstar, that the Christians gave the Jews 1st citizens rights and helped out to oppress Arabs. And subsequently this backstabbing action had dire consequences for Jews and Christians alike when the Arabs were able to rid themselves of that nasty Aryan/Jewish racist colonial oppression.

It's not the first time Jews backstabbed Muslims. Muhammed encountered it too when Jews switched sides in the middle of a war. They were trialed according to their own Jewish law, which meant capital punishment. People like you call it anti-semitic, and leave out the part what the Jews were given a totally fair trial for what they did because it doesn't serve your nasty anti-Muslim agenda.

 

Are you really thinking that Palestinians should continue enduring Israel's war against them without ever fighting back?

There is NOTHING to consider that such a direction would lead to peace.

Even so, President Abbas has been a close ally of the IDF in working to suppress violence.

 

Hate on both sides is certainly a problem.

But, hate is not a justification and it doesn't lead to a plan for humans to live with the rights we state are fundamental.

That is not a justification for a program of never ending war and atrocity by one side against the other.

 

Yes, Abbas works fine with Israel, the problem is the Palestinians, Abbas is scared to hold elections because he fears that Hamas, which is a Terrorist Organization, committed to the complete destruction of Israel, will sweep him from power.

It may take a few generations before the Palestinians can produce a society that is willing to recognise the Jewish state's right to exist in safely behind yet to be drawn permanent borders.

 

You would have to cite evidence that Hamas has anywhere near that kind of political power in West Bank.

Plus, Hamas of Gaza has for decades stated that they would support solutions negotiated by President Abbas, knowing full well that ANY negotiated solution would leave a permanent Israeli state.

The whole idea that Palestine is holding out for the destruction of Israel is an ages old trope that hasn't been true for decades.

So, your last sentence is a major failing on your part.

What Israel complains about is that Palestine recognizes Israel as a permanent state. But, Palestine doesn't recognize Israel as a JEWISH state, as there are Palestinian citizens of Israel, living in Israel - along with Christians and others who are citizens.

You can't expect Palestine to endorse Israeli apartheid when so many Palestinians are directly affected.

 

Hamas refuses to negotiate with Israel because they do not recognise Israel as a legitimate government.

Hamas’s new policy document may be viewed in its entirety here.

It demands a Palestinian Nation from "The River To The Sea" with Jerusalem as its capitol. 'The document is also explicit in its refusal to accept the legitimacy or existence of any Jewish state:'

'The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah…. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity…. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea.'

'Just in case that wasn’t clear:'

There is no alternative to a fully sovereign Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil, with Jerusalem as its capital.

'It also explicitly continues to endorse violence:'

'Resistance and jihad for the liberation of Palestine will remain a legitimate right, a duty and an honour for all the sons and daughters of our people and our Ummah. … Resisting the occupation with all means and methods is a legitimate right guaranteed by divine laws and by international norms and laws. At the heart of these lies armed resistance, which is regarded as the strategic choice for protecting the principles and the rights of the Palestinian people.'

 

You need to cite your references.

Throughout the history of Israeli creation and expansion there certainly have been those who have said the above - and more aggressively.

But, as a position statement of Palestine, this is nowhere near an accurate statement today.

Also, let's remember that Palestine has worked to REMOVE Hamas. So, pretending that Hamas represents Palestine is a political stunt.

 

I did. Here it is, again. Hamas’s new policy document may be viewed in its entirety here.

Hamas has unchallenged control of the GAZA strip. 'Born out of the Muslim Brotherhood movement in the late 1980s, Hamas assumed power in Gaza after defeating Fatah in elections in 2006.'

Hamas is fanatically dedicated to the complete destruction of Israel, "From The River To The Sea."

Hamas refused to officially participate in West Bank local elections, last year, because Abbot refuses to hold Presidential and Legislative elections, because he knows that Hamas would clean his clock, like they did in Gaza. So, the Hamas candidates ran as "independents". Well guess what? The "Independents" beat the "Partisans" 64% to 36%.

https://www.al-monitor.com/original...-bank-elections-members-run-independent-lists

 

That is a right wing Israeli site that is dedicated to carefully positioning Hamas.

Hamas is a radical political party in Gaza that has the financing of border crossing revenue and the means of distributing aid when civilians are bombed and necessary civilian infrastructure is destroyed - hospitals, water, electricity, sewer, etc.

One serious concern is that President Abbas has been consistently dedicated to peace through negotiation. His unity government was designed to unite the governments of Gaza and West Bank (thus the name). Hamas would get only its logical representation and would need to sign on to the premise that violent means of leading to a secure country of Palestine are absolutely forbidden.

ISRAEL killed that direction.

The USA and Israel have been dedicated to ensuring that negotiated directions fail.

As the hope of negotiated peace dwindles over the years, there is absolutely no doubt of the risk of increasing. NO humans can tolerate the treatment by Israel of the open air prison conditions of Gaza nor the humanitarian atrocities of West Bank.

This isn't all on Israel. WE throw our political and economic power toward ensuring those conditions continuing without end.

 

You just admitted that Hamas is in a violent war with Israel, you just blamed this obvious fact on the Jews. That's not novel, Hamas hates the Jews and blame them for everything.

Hamas will not negotiate with the Jewish government, because they are dedicated to ridding all of Jewish Palestine of the Jewish government in Israel.

Gaza is a terrorist enclave, Israel has it barricaded on their side, and Egypt has it barricaded on the other, because Hamas is a terrorist group.

When Palestine is under the control of a stable government that recognises the right of the Jewish State to exist behind secure borders, they will negotiate the final lines and live side by side, in peace.

 

Hamas is a political organization. They have won elections in Gaza, where they have power.

They do not represent Palestine.

The government of President Abbas represents Palestine, is strongly opposed to Hamas, is dedicated AGAINST the use of violence in reaching the objective of a state of Palestine (demonstrating that by its support of IDF in issues of violence).

President Abbas formed a unity government to include Gaza, requiring that all members of that government swear against the use of violence in achieving goals.

Israel OPPOSED that government. In effect, they ENSURED the continuation of Hamas as the power center in Gaza.

Israel has NEVER accepted your idea of a government of Palestine.

The UN Security Council found that Palestine IS a stable state - an analysis that is required before a state can become a full member of the UN. Of course, the USA has veto power in the UNSC and thus vetoed this UNSC action.

Since the Bush administration, the USA has worked hard to protect Israel in their war against Palestine.

 

I should have mentioned that for decades, Hamas has stated that they see any negotiations of peace with Israel being led by the government of Abbas and that they would support that conclusion.

And, that acts of Israel against Gaza include several serious acts of war and numerous humanitarian atrocities that have continued for 20 years with Israel refusing any possibility of resolution.

No humans today or in history would live in Gaza without attempting to fight back against Israel's war.

 

You previously claimed that through no fault of Hamas, that Israel makes Gaza unlivable because of the blockade, again ignoring that Egypt blockades the other side of Gaza, for the same reason, they are terrorists.

Yes they have. 'At the Annapolis Conference in November 2007, three major parties—The PLO, Israel, and the US—agreed on a two-state solution as the outline for negotiations.' But, Hamas promptly blew up the peace process because they are not committed to a Two State solution, Hamas is committed to a ONE -STATE solution, with Israel wiped off the map.



'Following the conflict that erupted between the two main Palestinian parties, Fatah and Hamas, Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip, splintering the Palestinian Authority into two polities, each claiming to be the true representatives of the Palestinian people. Fatah controlled the Palestinian National Authority in the West Bank and Hamas Governed in Gaza.'

DUBYA? We have been firmly aligned with the Jewish State for WAY longer than that. Robert F Kennedy was an avid supporter of the Free State of Israel and supported military aid to the Jewish State.

'After winning the CA primary in 1968, a Palestinian murdered RFK on the anniversary of the outbreak of the Six Day war. In justifying murdering Robert F. Kennedy Sirhan Sirhan 'often mentioned Kennedy’s support for Israel and the supply of 50 F-4 Phantom fighters to Tel Aviv.'



'Just out of college, Robert Kennedy went to Israel in June 1948, a few weeks after Ben-Gurion had declared its independence, and wrote several articles for the Boston press. His admiration for the embattled Israelis was clear.'

"The Jewish people in Palestine who believe in and have been working toward this national state have become an immensely proud and determined people. It is already a truly great modern example of the birth of a nation with the primary ingredients of dignity and self-respect."

"The man dies, but his memory lives."

"Each time a man stands up for an ideal or seeks to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million centres of energy and daring, those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance."

'It is these words of inspiration that are carved on Kennedy’s memorial at Arlington National Cemetery.'

https://www.thejc.com/news/features...e-he-supported-israel-colin-shindler-1.464820

One day, there will be peace.

 

Yes. They refuse to negotiate with the Jewish State because in their religion, the Jewish State is illegitimate.

 

The murder of Bobby Kennedy was a horrible criminal act by a radicalized individual.

But, I don't believe you have a point here.

Quoting other radicals, including those who do not represent Palestine is not a method of promoting the truth.

It's like presenting white supremacists as purveyors of the beliefs of the USA.

 

This is absolute nonsense, wrapped in language that is purely political.

Palestine recognizes Israel as a permanent state within its 1967 borders, with full recognition that the borders are in dispute.

YOU and other Israelis demand that they be called a JEWISH state - a turn of phrase that Palestine can't recognized, as there are large numbers of Palestinians in Israel. Israel is demanding that they be recognized as being apartheid.

But, that issue is not blocking negotiation.

There is NO refusal on the part of Palestine to holding negotiations.

Netanyahu has stated clearly and for years that Israel will not negotiate. Period.

 

Why does Egypt blockade Gaza? You keep pretending that it doesn't because it destroys your claim that the blocade of the terrorist state is 'unjust'.

'The blockade was made permanent after Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip during the Battle of Gaza,[2] seizing government institutions and replacing Fatah and other Palestinian Authority (PA) officials with Hamas members.[3] Earlier, after Hamas won elections and formed the PA government in March 2006, led by Ismail Haniya, Israel and the Quartet on the Middle East set conditions before they would continue to provide aid to the PA or have any dialogue with any member of a Hamas-led PA government. These conditions were:

1. recognition of Israel,
2. disavowal of violent actions, and
3. acceptance of previous agreements between Israel and the PA, including the Oslo Accords.[4]
4. Hamas refused to accept these conditions.[5]'

'When Hamas took over Gaza, Egypt and Israel largely closed their border crossings with Gaza, on the grounds that Fatah and PA forces had fled the Strip and were no longer able to provide security on the Palestinian side.[6]'



Abbas Supports the Blocade of Gaza

PA support of blockade
'Linked with the conflict following his party's loss in the 2006 election, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas approved the Egyptian border restrictions by the new regime, purportedly aimed at protecting Egypt from danger. In 2014 and subsequent years, Abbas supported Egypt's crackdown on smuggling tunnels and welcomed the flooding of the tunnels by Egypt in coordination with the PA.[20][42][43]'

'In 2010, Abbas declared that he opposed lifting the Israeli naval blockade of the Gaza Strip because this would bolster Hamas. Egypt also supported this position.[44]'

'In 2016, Abbas objected to the entrance of Qatari fuel to the Gaza electricity plant via Israel, because his PA would be unable to collect taxes on the fuel.[45]'

One day, there will be peace

 

Egypt has close economic ties to Israel and not much economic or political benefit from opening that border more than it has. The times that Egypt has opened its borders have been strongly opposed by Israel.

1. Palestine has recognized Israel.
2. President Abbas disavows violence as a means of change, working with the IDF. He has gained enough trust from IDF to be allowed weapons to fight terrorism.
3. Palestine accepts the 1967 border as the starting point for negotiations.
4. Hamas doesn't represent Palestine. How many times does that have to be pointed out to you???

Hamas has stated that the government of West Bank will negotiate and that Gaza will accept that outcome.

Israel won't even discuss cease fires with Gaza, continuing its acts of war against Gaza. Israel won't even allow Gaza to fish its internationally recognized Mediterranean waters.

 

Are all nation-states with minorities apartheid states?