Shocker in Egypt: Christians facing rising discrimination,

We tried to tell you. The Sharia being implemented in Egypt will not be Paper Sharia, the theoretical constructs entertained in Western academic exercises about what Sharia could, would, should, or ought to be. Egypt's Christians will not face the "moderate" Sharia prototype on someone's drawing board. They will get the production model, whose performance is already on display. "Christians fear Islamist pressure in Egypt," by Maggie Michael for the Associated Press, October 8

Islamic law, which we're accused of being Islamophobes for citing, but curiously keeps being put into practice by Muslims, forbids crosses and church bells, and forbids the construction of new churches or the repair of old ones. More "moderate" Islamic countries just make it dangerous and difficult to try.

Translation: Anyone not in a hijab is fair game.

http://news.yahoo.com/christians-fear-islamist-pressure-egypt-164823245.html

 

CHRISTIAN RIOTS IN EGYPT - a sign of things to come?


Christian Copts, security forces clash in Egypt

Violent clashes erupt in Cairo between Christians protesting a recent attack on a church and military forces, at least 23 people dead, hundreds injured


Fierce clashes erupted in Cairo Sunday night between Christians protesting over a recent attack on a church and the military, leaving at least 23 people dead and more than 200 injured, security and hospital officials said.


The clashes spread to nearby Tahrir Square and the area around it, causing massive traffic jams in the already chaotic city of 18 million.

In an attempt to quell the riots, Egypt's army rulers imposed a curfew on the square and downtown area. The curfew would last from 2 am to 7 am on Monday, state television reported.



The protesters said their demonstration began as a peaceful attempt to sit in at the television building. But then, they said they came under attack by thugs in plainclothes who rained stones down on them and fired pellets.

"The protest was peaceful. We wanted to hold a sit-in, as usual," said Essam Khalili, a protester wearing a white shirt with a cross drawn on it. "Thugs attacked us and a military vehicle jumped over a pavement and ran over at least 10 people. I saw them."

Wael Roufail, another protesters, corroborated the account.

"I saw the vehicle running over the protesters. Then they opened fired at us," he said.




http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4133185,00.html

 

Egypt didn't have a revolution. It had a military coup in which the generals are using the Muslim Brotherhood to lend themselves some legitimacy. In order to get the Islamists on board it's necessary to sacrifice the interests of the minority Christians. This is how the system works.

Hey, where's Abu Sina? His insight would be appreciated on this matter.

 

Do you really need Abu Sina to know his insight on this situation? Isn't it obvious that deep inside every Egyptian is a committed pacifist, liberal democrat and a stickler for the rule of law, the Egyptians cannot possibly be unruly and violent. It's therefore a Zionist/American conspiracy to overturn the results of the people's revolution and Ilan Garpel himself was spotted at the scene of the riots with a Hebrew-Arabic dictionary in one hand and his IDF pictures in another, personally instigating the sectarian violence and directing the Coptic crowds to attack the people's army of the Arabic Republic of Egypt.

 

If one wants to fight it's a good idea to have an opponent in the ring. Sometimes it's useful to specifically invite that opponent into the ring so that he is in the location where he is compelled to defend himself.

 

Things are going very wrong in Egypt. I was always worried about this. Religious warfare is ugly. The Egyptian military is the only authority to blame it seems for not helping ease the Coptic Christian persecution.

This ugly scene is like what might have happened to Blacks in American equal rights protests in USA of 1920 or earlier. The only thing that's missing is the fire hoses.

Oh, it looks like the death toll is raised to 24: 24 dead in worst Cairo riots since Mubarak ouster. The military is calling an emergency meeting. I wonder, but doubt, that they will come up with reasonable answers. They might, I suspect, even use this to suspend the move to democracy and continue their emergency rule for who knows how long.

At least some Arabs had a conscience, so there is some hope, but I don't know if there is enough sentiment to improve the situation there.

 

The Islamophobes must have short memories: the Copts have been persecuted in Egypt for decades if not centuries by the Muslims, long before the ouster of Mubarak. The Islamists are no doubt using the phenomena to advance their cause (like the Nazis used anti-Semitism in Germany to advance theirs). If the authorities are smart, they'll see this tactic for what it is and crack down on more-than-usual anti-Coptism.

 

I never had any doubts that the Arab spring would end with either an evil Islamist state or another military dictatorship. I think it will be the former.

_

 

I wonder, if the pro-Muslim apologists will now attack you.

_

 

don't you see a ...ummm...contradiction in your statement above? You called people exposing the persecution of religious minorities in Islamic countries 'Islamophobes" and ...went on to expose the decades (or centuries?) long persecution of a religious minority in Egypt.

 

_______

 

I certainly agree with the first part of your paragraph.

I am not so certain of your second.

The army has always been in charge of the country since the Nasser took power. We in Egypt, all knew that there would be a power struggle whenever and however Mubarak left office.

I will be interested to see what Naguib Saweris ( of the most influential and wealthiest Copt families ) says about the events of last night.

I don't think that the army is needs the Islamists at all. I think that the Islamists and Salafists have joined every other group in Egypt which has appeared in the current political void.

The country is at a very dangerous crossroads. We may have already taken that very wrong turn.

Frankly, I was happier and more secure with the old regime in power.

 

Good luck.

 

I heard from a photographer friend before the army got involved that he tried to drive his car along with other reporters past Maspiro on the Corniche. He was telling us that the Copts had blocked his way and the entire road. He said that when he tried to reason with them and get past to work he was told that they would slash his tyres and when he came back his car would be burned. They pointed to a few cars outside who had flat tyres and he said they looked like they had been done with knives as they were long slits in the sides of them.
He told us he drove away very angry.

My guess is this is what fired up ordinary Cairienes and they decided it was not acceptable to be threatened by these Copts some who he said Aswan (upper Egypt) accents.

The Copts started to throw petrol molotovs are army jeeps and all hell broke loose. It's aslo being reported by reporters that the Copts had guns and some were threatened by the guns.

A few days ago someone here asked me what I thought of the situation before all this got bad. I said that they should not break the law by building until the new government is established and when the country quitens down with a new cabinet and an elected government rather than a transitional one.
Problem is we are dealing with violent thugs here as usual the people of Cairo who already have not much patience with upper Egyptian mentality and thuggery and their use of guns lost patience I guess and so did the army.

I dont know all the details but I do know the details of that friend who was threatened and who saw with his own eyes the slit tyres of the cars in the road beside Maspero they pointed out to him as a threat.

Copts in Egypt just lost any support they might have had. I for one will not tolerate anone telling me that I cannot drive in Cairo and if I do have my tyres slashed or car molotoved.

No Cairiene will accept this thuggery and the army was in the right to protect the citizens who were going about their business and driving in the roads which the Copts were blocking and threatening.


I can also confirm they used guns to shoot arm officers.
Men around Maspero. No idea if they were Copts or Muslim or Buddhist but they were in the crowd of Copts in their ranks.
No source for this as this is personal experience but this is current news and escalated but from an eye witness the photographer known to me.

To be honest this started as just Copt thuggery and threats as this photographer said this happened well before an real conflict, (although it may be that the car drivers with the slit tyres when they realised what had been done reacted which escalated.

I do believe that then pro Mubaraks have taken advantage of the situation but thats only my opinion.

 

http://www.politicalforum.com/lates...eatens-drivers-slit-tyres-before-clashes.html

you want my view here it is

 

My guess is Saweiris will say nothing.

First because he wont want a part of it.
Second he will be more concerned about his businesses.
Third he may already know that the drivers were threatened and know of people who were threatened so know what actually escalated it from a demo to a riot.
Fourth he will not want to add fuel to the fire after his 'Islamic cartoon affair'. He lost a lot of respect by that.

He will say nothing I bet.

as for the army needing Islamists I agree with you
they dont need the Islamists

they are soldiers ill prepared for the task that fell into their hands and trying to do what they can with a complete total wreck they inherited, every part that involved the government was rotten right down to the stock exchange.

The army always hated the central intelligence as someone living in Egypt you would know that or if you have army relatives. . Central Intelligence ran the country not the army. That was why Mubarak had a far huger central intelligence than army to protect him but in the end the army won because the people hated the CI and not the army.

 

So, Egyptians unite against a tyrant, and then afterwards divide again, along religious lines?

Ugh...

I hate it completely, why can't they keep the Tahrir spirit alive? Why do people have to attack and kill each-other just because they follow a different aspect of Abrahamic based religion?

Why when given the opportunity to change their nation for the better, become the next Turkey, do they squander it? Why are the Muslim Brotherhood trying to turn Egypt into Pakistan?

Maybe the military is key in why Egypt is where it is today, in all aspects, pre-revolution, during the revolution and then after the revolution, maybe until the Egyptian military changes, Egypt can never change for the better.

 

It's very simple.

Before the revolution there is evidence that Mubarak used sectarian tension to hold onto Emergency Laws for 30 years!!

There is a lot of talk that the pro Mubareaks are still doing it.

The problem is we have ignorant Copts from villages breaking the law and they would have been better to wait till the elected government is in power but they dont because they are illiterate with upper Egypt mentality and prefer guns. This is both Muslims and Copts.

What these Copts should have been doing is to spend the time instead of causing trouble and worrying about building churches is to form parties and campaign. that would have made more sense. in the beginning this is what saweiris tried to do. The Copt billionaire. He had many Muslims join his campaign!!
That was until he insulted islam by the Islamic cartoon affair which discredited him totally. I was actually following him quite closely in the beginning and I remember even here on this forum saying that I a Muslim might consider voting for him myself. Not now though.
Then he loses the Muslims who supported him.

They are not very smart to be honest and I for one will not allow Copts to stop me driving in Cairo or threaten to slash my tyres if I do.

It's like the Camel Battle all over again.

Check out that to see the connection.

 

That is sometimes what seems to happen when you get rid of dictators or heavy handed governments.

Many things get better.

But law and order sometimes falls apart.

Saddam was sick. But Iraqi women had (apparently) more rights under his regime then they do now and tens of thousands of people died who would probably still be alive (including thousands of Americans) had he not been forced from power when he was.

It is not always a good thing to force democracy down a countries throat before they are ready for it.

That is why American/EU leaders should stay out of other countries business (unless mass genocide is going on).


It's so pathetic...the EU and American leaders cannot jump into regime changing fast enough in many countries.

But back in '94 - when 800,000 Rwandans were being slaughtered, they just stood by and let it happen.

HYPOCRITES


Unless genocide is taking place...mind your own business.

And if it IS taking place - get the 'F' in there and stop it...morons.

 

So why do we in non-Muslim countries allow Muslims to walk around in public with headscarfs, and worse, with their faces covered? Looks, sounds and smells like double standards where Islam rules.

PS I have noticed that Western female reporters, whilst working in Afghanisatan, wear headscarfs (loosely tied). Another double standard set by our 'freedom loving' media?

 

Let me just add also.

Hillary Clinton was supposed to have said that she was considering sending US troops to Egypt to protect Copts.

No idea if this is true or not but I can tell you that this statement would have caused more petrol to be added to the fire.
Either she is crazy or someone want to escalate this even further by involving outside forces into the mixture.

Poking the dog and causing more sectarian tension.

You can also consider another interesting point.

The army just announced the cancellation of amendment Article 5.

The old NDP orphans and pro Mubaraks would not be happy at all with that news!
That means they cannot run for independant seats with 1/3rd of the parliament being independant.

Worth noting and adding up all the pieces of the jigsaw instead of automatically assuming!!!

The good detective takes all the information into consideration. The motive, opportunity and weapons used.

 

Egypt is oppressive towards it's religious minorities. They are fighting back in the only way they know how against an uninterested State that passes laws to protect them but never enforces them in any real consistent way.

Laws without enforcement simply don't count.

 

I wont waste much time with you but tell you this.

Mubaraks Egypt was oppressive to everyone.
Anyone who stood up against it was tortured or killed or imprisoned.
The Copts and Muslims both fought back and that's why the remnants cannot gather in their heads that their days are gone.

For an example just look at Saleh of Yemen.
He will have to be forcibly removed because he cannot comprehend at all that he is not wanted. Same with the Mubaraks. They cannot understand at all. When you have total power it is not easy to give it up. Why do you think Saudi king holds on so tight amking every concession so as to keep that hold on power. It's a psychological thing. A mental thing.

If you knew Egypt even a tiny bit you would already know that the police never enforced the law unless for themsleves. For example you would rarely get aticket from an officer if he could have a bribe instead. Very simple the police are Mubaraks men and the army hated the Police because they were not disciplined and wild dogs. Very simple and all the reason to discredit the army if you are pro Mubarak.

Think a bit deeper.

 

yes you see exactly the point

because that law was Mubaraks law and because Central Intelligence was purely to protect the regime and was much more powerful than the army this causes the chaos we see today.

They are the wild dogs who lived on bribery and that bribery cash has now left their pockets empty.
Thats why under Muabark every corner had police on it but now you never see police at all. They are all sitting at home collecting salary and doing nothing at all.

At least Libya had a clean police force but here it is so rotten to the core of it that I have no idea how we repair it.

Countries supporting dictators supported this rotten regime and it's protector the police and central security and presidential guard.

All of that mixture is finding it very difficult to hand over the power they ruled for decades to the people.

If Egypt succeeds it will mean other dictators thrones are wobbling.
If it doesnt not succeed then they are safe they think.

Don't forget we are surrounded by autocratic leaders here whose positions are in jeopardy so the more chaos here they get another day in power.

Many also do not want Turkey and Egypt to get too friendly.

The PM Sharaf is stating over and over foreign hands are at work and the easiest way to cause chaos is to recruit ignorant peasants from villages who know nothing better and that means Muslims and Copts.

 

The West is full of 'know-it-all's'.

Thinking you know-it-all can be VERY dangerous.