SOON:Revolution in Russia

Ahhh....never mind. Language barrier.

The thing is - we have no need to do that right now. There were no real decrease in freedom/civil rights or something else under Putin. Yeah, some TV channels were bought by state and of course state have it's own vision of what-should-be-on-my-channel. It doesn't mean we have no independent media. We have - all newspapers, in fact, are independent and you can find any point of view over there. There are some private channels-like Ren TV, which have anti-Putin tendency in their reports. It's rating sucks anyway.
But you in your post was all about - Putin is cutting freedom of the word!!!1111 Despite he didn't really.
The same with "Putin is butchering peaceful protesters meetings!!!11". When group of protesters braking law in USA or EU their meeting usually being stopped by police. And yep, can't find anything about "brutal Obama/Cameron/Sarcozy/whoever butchering opposition!!!111". Your elite just don't like him. And that is why your "free" media is full of BS about Russia, which has no connection with reality. Your hypocrisy just pisses me of. That is what my post was about.

Security was increased in USA since 9/11. Are you "trading with your freedom"?

But we were.

Pretty ignorant from my point of view. Do you realize, that entire economical system was destroyed? USSR had completely different economics structure, strongly based on military. It was involving all soviet republics. After USSR collapse entire sectors of economy was lost. We can't "just double our economy by adopting technologies". We are now capitalist state and we are playing the same rules as others do. We use mostly the same technologies as others. Innovation sector is pretty small in every diversed economy. Can you "just double your economy by adopting technologies"? Don't think so.

Yeah, sure "Putin murdered Politkovskaya!!11". Just like he has no other business except killing single journalist in marginal newspaper. Whatever you want to believe, anyway.

That was really silly now. Don't you feel that it contradicts the propaganda-post itself? I am about "Runet is full of videos and protests blah-blah-blah".

... really need to divide them in the 5-th time. And after that send half to Siberia as a cheap labor force for Motherland. They are too wild and barbarian to become normal citizens.*evil smile*

 

Absolutely agree! International interest dictates the fifth Partitions of Rzeczpospolita! As Germans our partners and almost friends now, they are hated by Poles almost so much as Russians they need indemnification for moral sufferings caused by the Polish hatred. So it will be fair if they will take back the western part of Poland. In turn we'll join the rest part of former East Prussia which Stalin has given Poles to the Kaliningrad oblast of Russia.

Now about demographic problems. I think 30 millions is not the sufficient population for such advanced and great country. So I suggest to solve this problem immediately. As China has some surplus of the population I'm sure that international interest dictates to move a part of Chineses to Poland. So I assume 70-80 millions Chinese immigrants will promote prosperity and economic development of this country.

This is my opinion.

 

I am pretty sure, that our German comrades would enjoy Danzig and Silesia back. However, I would prefer Krakov, as city saved by Russians, from, ironically, Germans. It rightfully should be ours. Of course we will have to rename it into New Moscow. Since we cannot tolerate Poles in New Moscow, just like we could not tolerate them in Moscow in 1612, we will have to send all population in a nice quiet Novaya Zemlya, near the place Tsar Bomb was tested.


Gee, gust noticed that this is Monaco logo that guy have. If it is not some sort of retard Polish joke, his post is just huge nanodick complex. My god, his country is smaller, than my Backyard then!

 

Is it unsafe or not but it is our internal business.I'm strongly negative to Putin,but the prospect of pro-Western puppit regime doesn't appeal to me at all.Unfortunately, there is no possibility for the real revolution in Russia today,there is only a possibility for the further improvement of of the situation.

 

Oh yes! I'm sorry! This is the Monaco flag. Flags of Poland and Monaco are very similar. In this a case the international situation has changed. We ask Poles to excuse us, The Partitions of Rzeczpospolita is cancelled. And we start the partitions of Monaco with the purpose to free this country from centuries-old tyranny of Grimaldi dynasty. I just should buy a new microscope to find this country on a map. Because the old one which I have does not increase more than 900 times. Then I'll solve what parts of Monaco we'll divide.

 

But we thought you are trolling here. I think everyone who calls revolution should take into account the external and internal situation. Orange variants of Ukraine and Georgia which you extol here do not involve me. Revolution about which you speak here means the civil war and foreign intervention only. I see the example of Libya does not teach anybody. And do not tell tales about Putin's and EdRo's low rating. No matter that few people consider them an ideal, they will take their percent. And the majority will vote for them because the majority always votes for authority. Personally I prefer Evolution instead of Revolution. If you want to do some shooting I recommend you to join French Foreign Legion and you will have an opportunity in the structure of NATO forces to give a freedom and democracy to Afghanistan for example. Probably Afghans will thank you. I think bullet holes in a head promote ventilation of a brain.
Do not take offence if something wrong.

 

My post wasn't like that. And nobody is saying Russia has lost all its freedoms. Nor that it's the worst country on the planet for them (by a longshot).

I think the word that is used most is "backsliding" when the state gets more control of the media, Putin puts an opponent in jail, consolidates power, that sort of thing. It is the idea that you're headed in the wrong direction.

I'm sure I can find an recent article, there are many

Ah, here's a recent one from Gorbachev, who you might actually listen to because he's Russian.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Glob...es-Putin-s-Russia-as-backsliding-on-democracy

Again, nobody says that.

However lemmi see if I can find Putin's quote from the 2010 protests:

""If you get [permission], then go out and demonstrate," Mr. Putin said in a newspaper interview Monday. "If not, you do not have the right. If you go out without having the right – you are going to get beaten with a club. It’s as simple as that."

So you have to get "permission"...or else. Russia is still no Syria. Your police my bust up any protests Putin doesn't like and jail the leaders, but at least you only very rarely put a bullet in somebody. And I don't know if Putin ever calls for that. I suspect it's more vulnerable and thus more ruthless local leaders behind the reporter killings.

Protesting itself isn't against the law. Usually if they're getting arrested it's because they're breaking some specific law that would get them hauled away even if they weren't a protester, like looting, blocking a road, tresspassing, assaulting a police officer, etc. And even then they're usually out again very soon.

You can increase security without sacrificing freedoms. Though I think we may have stepped over that line sometimes. But I don't want to derail the thread.

The Russian government didn't have to make the choices it did, it's just that you don't mind.

Hmmmm. I suppose I'm not an expert on Russian equipment. My impression was that things were still behind in many areas.

Well, here, I do know a bit about farming. What is farming like in Russia?

For example, if you had a family farm, operated by one old man and one younger man, how many acres might they own? What sort of machinery and what size (combine, tractors, various attachment, sprayers, grain trucks)? Or put another way, how much does their combine cost (or what is it's weight or features)? Would they have their own silos and drier?

Why can't you just have a pro-western regime that isn't a puppet? I don't see why those would have to go together.

Again this is the feeling I get where Russians want "pride" which involves feeling feared and adversarial. If a politician is friendly with the west, he would be seen as weak, even if his deals were very benificial to Russia.

 

More media in state's property is hardly a "backsliding". Have a lot of other sources anyway.

Such as? Ah, Khodorcovskiy, another truly "free" western media meme. A thief, which overestimated it's own influence on the state. Doubt that he would probably gain more than 1% on elections.

Sorry, don't care about you propaganda machine opinion.

A guy, whose reign led to USSR destruction and a guy, which lives outside now. Another "very" authoritative source. May be you should check Russians' attitude towards him before linking to him?

Open a big secret for you, it is just the way it is everywhere. Simple as that.

More propaganda. Will try reverse logic. "Your police may bust up any protests Obama doesn't like."

Such as? Ah, yes, let me guess, Nemtsov, Kasyanov, Limonov e.t.c. All combined less than 5% rating I assume. "Very" dangerous for 70% Putin. Strange, that he isn't doing that to his only real opposition - communists. May be it is all about breaking the law?

Lets make it more simple for you. Give me a single proof, that Putin is killing journalists.

You disapprove? Because it is the way it is in Russia. All this thing is about "protesters" didn't get the premission for their meeting in the place they want. It is not about state's denial to give them premission at all, it is about they think they have the right to protest everywhere they want.

Oh see, you have. Still can't read something about US beeing a dictatorship.

They still are somewhere. But you can't say that country X is using more advanced technology everywhere, then country Y. Because it is capitalism and owner decides about his production line upgrade for itself. Really, I would like to tell why you statement was ignorant, but it is just too long to write. And yes, language barrier. Economical growth is more about having market for your products, about possibilities for business and international trade relations. China obviously have far inferior tech in many things they produce. But they are growing quite fine. Why? Cheap workforce, cheap products, few limits in international trade. We have more expencive workforce, but still cheaper then in the West, we have lots of trade barriers, sometimes product's bad exterior design. From the other side we don't have to import resources. It is all complicated, as you see.

You know a bit about farming. I know nothing about it. Still, agriculture was the most dramatically suffered economics sector during USSR destruction and economical stagnation. Recovering currently. As far as I concerned, we were the biggest crops exporter in 2009. Still importing lots of meat. We should start chicken export in 2012.

Can't we have pro-Russian regime instead?

Wrong. If his deals will be benificial, he won't be considered weak. If they won't be benificial, or society won't know their true benifit, he will be considered weak. Just like Medvedev considered weak now. And, from the other side, as Obama considered weak by some Americans for the same reasons.

 

A point I'd really like to get across is that there is no longer any reason why being pro-western can't be more pro-Russian than being antagonistic with the west.

I suppose that depends on whether you think it's more pro-Russian to improve peoples quality of life or to be the scary bear.

How about, there is no longer any reason by being pro-western can't be more pro-Russians.

 

What for we should have it? Is West a specimen of for imitation?

Street repressions in the USA:

August,1965,Watts Riot in Los Angeles - 31 killed and about a yhousand of wounded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Riot);

Julay,1967,, Newark Riot - 25 killed[ (including 2 babies), 725 wounded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Newark_riots);

July 1967, 12th Street Detroit riot - 43 killed, 467 wounded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_Street_riot);

February 6, 1968 Orangeburg massacre - 2 killed, 28 wounded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangeburg_massacre);

December 4, 1969 Chicago police raid (a raid on the Black Panther office in Chicago ) - 2 killed, several wounded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Ha..._police_raid);

May 4, 1970 Kent State Shooting - 4 killed, 9 wounded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings);it became well known because in this case the victims were not poor black teenagers from the ghetto, but the offsprings of the establishment;

May 9, 1970 Augusta Riot - 6 dead, 80 wounded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...ficult_times);

14-15 May 1970, Jackson State killings - 2 killed, 12 wounded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_State_killings);

August 1970 Chicano Moratorium, 4 killed. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicano_Moratorium);

May 13, 1985 1985 MOVE bombing - 11 killed, including 5 children.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing);

February 28, 1993 Waco siege - 80 killed, 3 wounded (though most of them died not from bullets, but were burned up in the besieged and set on fire by the National Guard house). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege);

September 3, 2001 Rainbow Farm - 2 killed, 1 wounded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Farm).

Putin's regime has not yet killed the demonstrators.

 

Russia and America have much in common. That's not a good thing for either of the dying empires.

 

This sounds like the same thing the American propaganda machine has been preaching since the Cold War. Russia is a mafia state with no regard for its citizens.

 

WOW! Did you really include Waco? Should the government let a false prophet that was acquiring a mass arsenal that was raping children be allowed to go free? The US only gave nearly two months before they acted. If every hostage situation was given that leniency, we'd still be negotiating with the L.A. bank robbers in North Hollywood.

 

No way. I love Putin. Putin did great in comparison to all these Zionist marionettes, like alcoholic Yeltin.



And who is going to replace him? Zionists like Kasparov? Nemtsov? Yavlinstky? Zhirinovsky? They are all waiting to sell out Russia to the West, like Khodorkovski wanted and screaming that Putin doesn't want to share power with this political scum.
Never heard that "Russian opposition" ever done or ever suggested something clever. Just screeming: "Putin holds the power!!! Lets take this off!".
Jee..

 

Should the US government kill 80 men without a trial and investigation?

 

I think it is necessary to ask Russian liberals. Why being pro-Western they do not want to be pro-Russian. Peter the Great was pro-Western and pro-Russian at the same time.
As for the other Russian citizens, there are many reasons not to want to be pro-Western. Didactic tone towards Russia from the West for example, anti-Russian policy which is sometimes covered with a frank hypocrisy and so on. And that is the West? Anglo-Saxon world? Germany and France are west for us too. Germany does not hold a didactic tone, and cooperate with us with benefits. Putin may be called pro-German and pro-Russian at the same time, I think.

 

The guy which have started this thread clearly belongs to Liberals or to so-called National Liberals. Read his second post. What does he offer. Navalniy. Who is mr. Navalniy? The former member of the party Yaboloko. Now the great blabber and liberal-psevdonatsionalist. Rating of liberals in Russia tends to zero. They have no chance of getting into the Duma. This is why they instigate babel at the election. But all they can do is to gather a crowd 1500-2000 of angry persons without any support of majority. Though there are things for which Putin can to be criticized but not by liberals and Navalniy, who are nothing.

 

Thread's Author probably still too young for such threads. Mr. Navalny already long time is Mr. Anecdote in the space RuNet.

 

heh, I'd say he was definitely pro-Western but completely against-(old)Russian. I've read so many books about this guy and I'd conclude he was simply warlord.

 

Maybe this sounds rude, but Peter did not disdain the ordinary a muzhik work. He was not only a warlord, he was a tyrant, too. Peter was much more brutal than Stalin.

 

Yeah, that what I said - completely against-(old)Russian.
I wouldn't compare him to Stalin since Stalin was dictator and Peter the regular monarch but yes, both were brutal like no tomorrow

 

In this case you should name all Russian reformers against old Russian. Patriarch Nikon for example which has made reform which has caused schism in orthodox church and appearance of so-called Old Believers. Ivan the Terrible with his reforms directed for strengthening and centralization the state and against local dukes with their autonomous fiefdoms. Ivan the Great with his reforms. To be the reformer does not mean to be against Russian. Every country sometimes needs reforms and to reject a part old system.

First of all he was the reformer and just in the secondly the warlord.

 

I'm not sure we have anything to discuss here since we came to the conclusion that Peter was the great person and as usually all great persons are not extraordinary people.

On the other hand there are such things as "to try" and "to do". Peter did "try" to reform and he "did" kill many people. Russian people are used to sacrificing for ideas ( what is not acceptable in Western world ) this why Peter for Russians are "reformer" but not "bloody tyrant". So and Stalin for many other Russian people.

I think the whole concept of understanding of great political leaders is wrong in Russia. It looks like Russians just don't care about other millions of Russians who dies because some kinda tyrant "tried" to do his “reforms”. This is wrong.

The biggest value is people. Look at population of Russia. In 1700’s Russian empire population was the half of Europe. Today Russia has the same population as Japan located on their tiny islands. May be it’s time to think different for Russians?

 

Suffice it to recall Alexander Makedonsky, Julius Caesar ... to understand a simple thing the history of civilization is inconceivable without the blood, the history of the Catholic Church is an example. You don't care that lot of good people were burned on the fire. But now you live in your comfortable world and trying to make the price events of which you do not understand.Perhaps in the history of Russia is a turning point. But you're trying to make some assessment.You do not live in Russia. You do not know the nature of the Russian people, and still trying to defend your point of view.

 

What do you know about me to make such statements?