Sources say MH17 report blames Russian missile for shooting down plane

Sorry, but wrong! Even the old German WW-2 ADA gun “8,8cm FlaK 41” was easy reaching at this with effective (not maximum) range!
A ManPod is totally out of question too … and so we have at least only few possible ADA missiles (ground to air) left … even for the Antonov 26.

It is undisputed that Rebels had conquered a battery of BUK missiles … no dispute about that from any side! What is disputed by Pro-Rebel side is that these missiles were workable. On one hand it is told that they had no warheads … on the other side it is told that necessary Commando and necessary radar vehicle was missing. Well, where is the proof that they were without Warhead and where is proof that they conquered only a half battery?
Until now no proofs about given, only claims!

 

The 777 was traveling at 550 mph!!!

NO WAY IN HELL is it going to be shot down by ground cannon fire!!

I saw the wreckage....the 777 had experienced a close proximity detonation by a BUK.

The manner of the way explosive decompression was experienced by the 777 is obvious.

AboveAlpha

 

Well … BUK was introduces at Red Army in 1972 and so old as it is, at least all Ex-Soldiers who served at any ADA battery of Red Army are able to use this weapon at least … and the possible number of persons is high! Sure, of course I have no evidence who and how many of Russian Rebels are able to handle this weapon … but that it is likely can’t be seriously denied.
That BUK isn’t modern like Patriot is clear, but it has not to be this! It has the range to shot down MH17, Rebels have them (even some are suddenly denying this of course and as usual) and until that there is no serious proof delivered that they were useless because no warhead and necessary command and radar vehicle conquered or having too … we have only claim vs claim without evidence.

 

The BUK's that were supplied by Spetsnaz to the Seperatists have a Proximity Detonation Fuse.

They get within distance of an aircraft and they detonate and it would not be hard for a BUK to down a Boeing 777 which is a Passenger Jet and not some U.S. Fighter Aircraft which could use either flares or deploy it's Electronic Warfare Pod and burn out the BUK's electronic Heat Seaking Guidance system.

The point I am trying to make is the BUK needs a highly trained and experienced person to be able to read the radar return to know what the HELL they are shooting at.

The Seperatists did not have sufficient training and Putin ordered Spetsnaz to stop working with the BUK units due to U.S. Recon.

AboveAlpha

 

What makes you sure that they have not Ex-Soldiers of Russian or even Red Army who are trained on this system or even in general on ADA systems?
Further, even your words that it is necessary to be highly trained to know on what the hell they are shooting on can be seen as proof that there was a bad human error the reason, when thinking they are aiming a Ukrainian Antonov 26 ... what many sources confirm when Rebels announced to have shot down here an Antonov before it went clear that it was MH17.

Technically you are wrong:
The BUK missile has Proximity fuze in the warhead of 50kg Splinter load ... and this is enough to cut an Boing 777 into 2 pieces, due (too) because of the fast decompression when hull is penetrated.

 

The engines of this 777 were not directly hit by the BUK.

The BUK detonated near the middle of the cabin as this is what the wreckage shows us.

I have never stated the shoot down of MH-17 was on purpose.

But I hold Putin and Spetsnaz responsible because THEY KNEW the Crimean Seperatists running the BUK SAM Launcher were not well trained.

The Seperatists were getting pounded by Ukrainian Su-25's flying ground attack and support roles.

The Seperatists panicked and shot down MH-17 by mistake.

But they should NEVER have been allowed to operate them.

AboveAlpha

 

In light of the character of the Kiev hijackers and terrorists, and the US/Israeli history of false flag stunts, President Putin did not cause that plane to crash.
I also notice that none of the posters care to add to their pile of suppositions the fact that anti-radar ribbon was falling out of the sky at the site of that big explosion/crash site attributed to the Malay airliner.
Never heard of airliners carrying anti radar ribbon.


And none of gurus of Blame Russia care to acknowledge that the Keiv hijackers directed that airliner off course to the shoot down site.
And, none of those gurus acknowledge that the US was acting in bad faith when it immediately blamed Russia with no valid evidence or witnesses.
And, none want to see that there were people in Ukraine that saw Kiev fighter jets at the scene.

Not much different from the USS Maine, Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin, Kennedy assassinations, Martin Luther King & Malcom X assassinations, 9/11, WMD.
The whole thing smells like heavy duty Weapons of Mass Deception are being employed by the US and its cohorts.

 

There was no anti-radar ribbon falling out of the sky near the MH-17 crash site and what is your point anyways?

We know wat happened.

It's just unfortunate that the Seperatists and Spetsnaz and even Putin simply did not just tell the truth from the beginning.

If they admitted it was a mistake and apologized....people would have forgiven them.

AboveAlpha

 

The point of the anti-radar ribbon falling out of the sky at the crash site means that the US is lying about the whole event.
I'm surprised that heavy duty military gurus like AboveAlpha can't connect the evidence.
Sherlock Holmes wouldn't ignore numerous evidences that are contrary to the blame Russia snow job going on.

 

Again....what would be the point of this and the U.S. does not use such ribbon anymore as we have Stealth Aircraft which gain Air Supremacy.

AboveAlpha

 

And THIS is the common and general miss-understanding here again and again: NOT RUSSIA is to blame here to be the guilty one! The Pro-Russian Rebels of Eastern Ukraine did and NOT the state of Russia and the Armed Forces of Russia!
Sure, Russian Rebels are more or less supported by Russia (with what in detail is questionable and full of debates and so on - and does not matter at least) and this is so far for me OK ... because West did and does not better in the world by backing this group of an internal conflict which is good for their own.

That the Rebels shot down MH17 is for me clear and proofed ... for others not, but this is OK. This was a bad accident of Human Error and no intention ... neither from Rebels, nor does it help the US with any sort of false flag conspiracy theory! Such things work do not work against any Global players like Russia ... as it worked with Gulf of Tonkin issue or these bad lies and false evidences to start war in Iraq in 2003.

So PLEASE stop here in this and in other threads to mix Pro Russian Rebels together with Russia itself!
Same way stop to mix Ukrainian Forces to be Nazi groups. There are groups which can be blamed Nazi of course, but these are a minority inside the Pro Ukrainian Militias ... aside Ukrainian Army!

 

Yeah...GOOD LUCK getting him to do that!!!

Yes....it was the Russian Speaking Crimean Seperatists who acidentally shot down MH-17....of this there is no doubt.

But once Putin had Spetsnaz stop directly working and fighting against Ukrainian Forces as the U.S. demanded that Putin stop allowing direct Military actions be erformed by Spetsnaz and he had the PROOF and Putin knew we did....Spetsnaz should NEVER have allowed the Crimean Seperatists to keep operating the BUK SAM Launchers.

This was irresponsible in the extreme and since the Ukrainain Su-25's were only flying in at 9000 feet and less in a Ground Attack and Support role....THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO NEED FOR BUK'S TO BE IN THE BATTLE THEATER!!!

The BUK is extremely difficult to operate as far as identifying what kind of aircraft is incomming and it takes a person of great skill to operate a BUK.

Even still....the SEPERATISTS PANICKED!!!!

Even with limited training they should have immediately KNOWN that any radar return of the size generated by the Boeing 777 and any radar return showing the high speed and altitude of the 777 as a Su-25 can only fly at a top speed loaded with munitions at 385 mph at 9000 feet.

Aswell since an Su-25 does not have a pressurized Cockpit it has absolutely no ability to fly at 33,000 feet ESPECIALLY at 550 mph.

THEY PANICKED...and launched a BUK SAM.

Spetsnaz supplied them with BUK's to counter Ukrainain Fighters....and the responsibility lays with Spetsnaz for allowing the BUK's to remian.

AboveAlpha

 

And why and with what did they shot down Antonov 26 at 26,000 feet please? Or are you seriously denying this issue where the Rebels proudly told to have done this? Or was this false flag issue too?

And again: Where is the evidence that Rebels don’t have these trained persons out of Red Army area inside them? BUK was a common weapon system in complete Warsaw Pact and other countries since end of 80’s! And if this takes a great skill … isn’t this right the reason and basic to make big human error by thinking to aim and shooting another Ukrainian Antonov 26 here?

Yes, against SU-25 Frogfoot and helicopters Mil 24 “Hind” etc. you don’t need BUK and BUK will be a bad decision to use here … but again: Don’t forget shot down of Antonov 26 which was confirmed in all details by Russian Rebels!
And these Russian Rebels in Eastern Ukraine have nothing to do for the first with Crimean peninsula. Sure, fighters and militias from there are to find in Eastern Ukraine too, no doubts, as well that Russia is holding his hand over the Rebels … what is no mistake or could be blamed (because who does this, has to blame any Western support of rebels in other places too!).

It is really amazing how people want to show and proof that Russian Rebels were not able to shot down MH17 in all details … sometimes with good arguments, sometimes with pure claims and more as questionable sources … as well with all tricks from “school of conspiracy claiming”, including these dirty ones of denying any counter source as irrelevant and mixing a bunch of several things together like a puzzle to show a big evidence of conspiracy etc.

 

You have to remember that when the BUK SAM's were being used years ago and tey were replaced quite awhile ago....those who operated them would be faily old right now.

There really was no issue with Russian Speaking Crimean's as they also tuned against Yanukovych who was feely elected by the Ukrainian People and was a Pro-Russian and supported by Putin...but when he started killing Unarmed Protestors after he illegally changed the Ukrainain Constitution even the Crimean's wanted him OUT!

This was all about Crimean Natural Gas....as Putin sent in large numbers of Spetsnaz and paid large amounts of U.S. Cash to create a Crimean Russian Speaking Seperatist War.

If you take the time to read the NSA Transcripts of the communication between the Seperatists when they called a Spetsnaz General to tell him they accidentally shot down a Civilian Passenger Jet Airliner....and we have not just the Transcripts which the NSA did not want to release thus they were forced to rease them by Presidential Executive Order....we also have Computer Voice Recognition of WHO WAS TALKING AND WHO WAS LISTENING!!

This area of the world is so saturated by U.S. Recon. Satellites as we have at least 2 in Geosyncronous Orbit as well as many in Low Earth Orbit passing by every hour....we know where the BUK was launched from and who lanched it and why they launched it.

THEY PANICKED!!

Remember....the BUK is a very old but capable SAM especially when you are accidentally shooting it at a target that is traveling without flares and a target with no clue it is being shot at!!!

The chances are low that a Russian Speaking Crimean who is young enough to wage war in 2014 yet old enough to have training to operate a BUK would have been selected and paid by Spetsnaz as if a guy was say....22 years old back in 1985.....he is now 52 years old...much too old to be fighting a war!!!

AboveAlpha

 

Does not convince me at all, sorry … too much “thought constructions” at least … and finally I see more an evidence in the harder handling of BUK that a simple human error was reason by shot down of MH17.
By the way, BUK is still in full use and not replaced!

 

If anything, its evidence that Russia supplied both the missile system AND personnel to operate them.

 

Sometimes the use of CAPS suggests yelling, suggests one might not be comfortable with his chosen position in having to defend it.

Yes, air to air missile. Yes, cannon fire. We didn't get to see much, but what we saw suggested just that.

Because US and Kiev government have only kept things secret, and refused to release relevant and useful information, somebody has something to hide.

 

And yet, from the very beginning, the US has provided nothing at all to support its claims. None of this satellite or radar information you claim (correctly) that it has.

If they are so certain of their claims, if they so believe all that trash talk on Twitter or whatever it was, why don't they release the supporting info? Why must they hide.

 

Russian Air Defense is using much newer Missiles and the BUK is used primarily in former Soviet States not in Russia.

As I stated the chances that Spetsnaz was able to pay off people in their 50's from the Crimea to operate BUK SAM launchers is low in the extreme.

And YES...it was a mistake...but the mistake was HUMAN.

AboveAlpha

 

It took a Presidential Executive Order to force the NSA to release the actual Voice Recordings as well as release the transcripts.

Voice Analyzation is fully capable of determining who was talking and Putin is aware of this.

There is not a CHANCE IN HELL that the U.S. would EVER release our Recon. Satellite Data other than the NSA Voice Data.

I use CAPS for emphasis...I am not shouting.

AboveAlpha

 

We have supplied more than Russia ever would.

Besides anyone familiar with Air Defense after taking a look at the Boeing 777 wreakage KNOWS it was downed by a BUK as the 777's cabit experienced rapid and immediate explosive decompression as the BUK detonated in proximity to the main cabin.

The Boeing 777 was flying too high and too fast to be downed by an Su-25 carrying R-60 Missiles which only have an effective range of 4,400 feet as they are not much more than firing a 30 mm canon than a fighter aircraft would have after this range as the R-60 is a very early and rudimentary heat seeker and the 777's engines were not struck.

As far as an Anti-Aircraft Canon.....NO WAY AT ALL POSSIBLE....as the combination of the 777's altitude of 33,000 feet and velocity of 550 mph as well as the atmospheric influence of high altitude wind currents which tend to flow at over 100 mph over 27,000 feet would make it like WINNING THE LOTTERY as far as ODD'S of anyone being able to hit a 777 and even if they did...it is not enough to take it down.

The Boeing 777 is an INTERCONTINENTAL PASSENGER AIRCRAFT which has THE LARGEST AND MOST POWERFUL, DURABLE AND STRONGEST CONSTRUCTION OF MATERIALS ever to have been built as most Intercontinental Aircraft have 4 ENGINES.

The Boeing 777 has two engines and only 2 as they have been built to withstand everything from bird strikes to volcanic ash intake.

It is highly unlikely in the extreme that even if an R-60 detonated outside a 777's engine that the engine would be damaged at all.

If the 777 lost an engine it would keep on flying because as I stated the 777 has the largest and most powerful single wing engines on the Planet upon a Passenger Airliner.

AboveAlpha

 

Sorry to say, but you are wrong again…

Russia is still using BUK system in version M2 and M3 with in total of about 150 systems! Further are many BUK M1 in reserve. Of course are successor systems still in use too (S-300 and S-400) … but as for example with tanks too, Russia is still using latest and modern models aside predecessors (Russia has about 15-20,000 Battle tanks, sources differ here, but about half of it are only T-72, T-80 and T-90 … rest are T-55 and T-62!).
Ukraine has about 60 BUK systems, of what are about 45-50 BUK M1, rest are these more modern BUK M2. As we know and what is totally undeniable, Rebels have conquered a battery of BUK from Ukrainian Army. Sure, it is denied that these were usable because a) no warheads and / or b) no depending radar / command system conquered. But this is very unlikely, because a battery is always stored and stationed together in one place. Even if they had no warheads, it is an easy task to get them … due to fact and as you told that they are widely used in Ex-USSR states.
So by fact to get trained personal for the weapons is for the East Ukrainian Rebels (I'm talking NOT about these from Crimean) an easy task … even without any support of Spetsnaz you always name. Where did these Russian rebels serve their Army time? Where did these Russian irregulars from Russia who fight with them together serve? No chance that no one of them served his Army time (wherever, whenever and in which Army it was) at a BUK battery or at any other Air Defense Missile battery which is using the common and not only at BUK system used Phased Array radar?

Of course I cannot give any evidence and tell that Ivan Ivanovitsch and Sergei Umanov and so on of Russian rebels did so … but that no one of Rebels did is pure by statistic very unlikely … aside any speculation and claiming that Russia give necessary support to do so!

It is interesting and annoying how the complete matter is handled at least!
From Pro-Russian side is everything questionable, everything is denied by them and all is a clear matter of conspiracy, sometimes false flag of CIA & Co. and in sum is everything the evil West with USA on head guilty for everything and all Ukrainian fighters are only Nazis and all this jabbering what is total nonsense!
From Western side is always Russia blamed like their own regular soldiers are fighting there in Eastern Ukraine too and that they are the evil power behind … and at least guilty for MH17 … and all in all like in the coldest times of cold war area! Same way nonsense as Pro Russian jabbering!

 

This is what I posted.

"Russian Air Defense is using much newer Missiles and the BUK is used primarily in former Soviet States not in Russia."...end quote AboveAlpha.

Russian Air Defense is using much newer Missiles and the BUK is used PRIMARILY in former Soviet States not in Russia.

PRIMARILY!!!

Russia might state it is using some first generation BUK's but IN REALITY these old BUK SAM's are IN STORAGE and would not be placed into active use unless there would be an ACTUAL WAR!!!

Right now you are NOT going to find any Russian Air Defense Unit's using 1st Generation BUK's for current air defense!!!

The United States has THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of all sorts of Aircraft from F-117's to early models of B-52's and even B-47's sitting out in the Desert but we are not flying them!!!

Same thing can be said about the 1st Generation Patriot used in the first Gulf War....we have them in storage but we are not using them in front line positions as we use the Improved Patriot II's.

The BUK that shot down the Boeing 777 was a 1st Generation BUK as that is what Spetsnaz pulled out of storage for use by Seperatists.

But there are no current BUK 1's in active service in Russia!!

AboveAlpha

 

Just to add....Spetsnaz made certain to supply the 1st Generation BUK's to the Seperatists as the BUK 2's are not something that the Ukrainian's would have allowed to be stationed in the Crimea.

AboveAlpha

 

And lastly.....we KNOW that the shootdown of MH-17 was a MISTAKE!

If a Crimean who was familiar and had been trained in the Soviet Military was stationed with that BUK....HE WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT WHAT THE RADAR RETURN WAS SHOWING HIM WAS A LARGE PASSENGER JETLINER!!!

HE WOULD NOT HAVE FIRED THE BUK SAM!!!

HE WOULD HAVE EXPERIENCE AND INSTANTLY RECOGNIZED THAT THE RADAR RETURN WAS MOVING TOO FAST AND TRAVELING TOO HIGH FOR IT TO BE A UKRAINIAN SU-25 which is what the Ukrainian's had been using to pound Seperatist Forces in that area where the BUK was lanched from.

So this only provides greater evidence that Spetsnaz allowed ill trained and inexperienced Seperatists by themselves to operate the BUK and when they saw the Boeing 777's radar return THEY PANICKED as they did not know how to properly read the radar return and fired the BUK SAM!!!

Any Crimean Seperatist who had TRAINING would have instantly known that the radar return was showing a large Passenger Jetliner traveling at high altitude and at 550 mph!!!

AboveAlpha