The Alternative Ukraine Thread

The story was about trying to implement some common sense auditing of our aid to Ukraine. Not surprised that you would oppose this however.

 

I do not oppose auditing and oversight of foreign aid. What I oppose is targeted oversight such as this since this was targeted at Ukraine aid which Biden supports. I said that oversight needs to be for all countries from Albania to Zambia.

 

Compare how much money that Albania and Zambia is getting compared to how much Ukraine is getting. It's nowhere in the same ballpark, so saying you oppose auditing until we check Albania's accounts first is simply absurd. Of course Ukraine should be targeted! There is no foreign country that compares to the amounts of money Ukraine is getting.

 

One would think such oversight would have been a basic condition that comes built into all "aid packages", don't ya think? I mean, if Congress is going to give away taxpayer monies in the form of "foreign aid", it seems like being able to follow up, if for no other reason, to just measure how effective our aid efforts have been. Not to mention being accountable to the taxpayers from whom the money was taken.

Why do you suppose forty-five Democrats, including every single member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, blocked legislation to establish an Office of the Lead Inspector General, who would have been charged with doing just that?

It's almost as if they're afraid such oversight might shed light on some... activities... that they can't allow light to be shed upon.

 

Congress picked up on Zelensky's statement that we have already won the war, and ignored the rider that it was in their minds.

If Zelensky had not intended to give the impression that Western and Central Ukraine had
won the war against Eastern and Southern Ukraine, and Russia then he should have said
it explicitly by saying something like:

- ... and members of Congress... the army officers I have chosen and I, have already won
the war for Ukraine in our minds, and with another 60,000 million dollars of weapons
we think we can win it in real life.

 

What you are claim Zalensky said is absolutely NOT what he said.
This is what he said.

“
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Wednesday that Ukraine is “alive and kicking” and has defeated invading Russia “in the battle for minds of the world.” In his address to a joint meeting of Congress, where he received a rousing welcome, Zelensky thanked the United States for billions of dollars in military ...”

 

The present situation is, Britain is giving our Kyiv government long range missiles, which they are using on Moscow
and we are not expecting any kind of response from Russia.
Idiot Biden is also considering sending long range missiles too,

and is only worried Russia may capture or be sold some and gain the technology in them.

Killing Russian civilians doesn't rate anywhere on his list of concerns.

What if Russia starts launching long range missiles at London and Washington DC?

 

However, since it is Kyiv attacking Moscow, the
rational response would be to eliminate the Kyiv government,
and maybe where the missiles are made.

 

You are skirting the issue. What I said and what you are ignoring is that I said all countries with names beginning from A through Z who get aid need to be treated the same way. I did not say that only Albania and Zambia need auditing. Yet you know that and are trying to skirt the meaning that I presented as an attempt at diversion.

 

So that's why the Democratic Senate voted an audit down? They wanted the auditing of ALL countries first?

Nah.

 

This is a short article so will post some parts of it here. I will comment on the peace talks.
“
cnbc.com/2023/08/01/ukraine-war-live-updates-latest-news-on-russia-and-the-war-in-ukraine.html

Ukraine war live updates: Ukraine and Russia struck by drones overnight; West-led peace talks in the pipeline


Both Ukraine and Russia were attacked overnight, with drone strikes targeting Kharkiv and Moscow, according to local authorities.

The world is now looking ahead to a meeting in Saudi Arabia set to take place next week, as first reported by the Wall Street Journal. Washington and Europe are reportedly hoping the talks, which exclude Russia, will lead to international backing for peace in Ukraine.

A Kremlin spokesperson said Russia will keep an eye on the discussions to evaluate the possibility of a “peaceful settlement,” but restated the country currently sees no grounds for peace negotiations with Kyiv.”

With Russia/ Putin saying that the

They voted it down because they know it is politically as in anti Biden motivated. My point is audit all foreign aid not just Ukraine because Trump is the likely candidate of the Trumpian party and Biden if he is alive will be the DAemocratic party candidate. It is that simple.

 

So no auditing. Got it.

When those weapons show up all over the world we can just shrug and say, "because Trump."

 

You obviously did not read my post or you are selectively ignoring it. I will say this again since you are ignoring what I said. Audit of foreign aid must be across the board so all that the Congress needs to do is to make it across the board.

 

I did read it, and found it a particularly ridiculous reason. We're not dumping billions in other countries, just Ukraine. I'm totally fine with auditing the foreign aid of every country, but voting down doing it for Ukraine because we don't have another system set up for everyone simply make me think that you agree with the Democrat Senators who voted this down that the fraud has to be hidden.

 

Your allegations that I would want fraud hidden is ridiculous. You also need to look up which countries we give aid of various types to. Of course in this period of time we are giving a lot of aid to Ukraine since they are fighting for their very existence. Besides Moskva propaganda do you have any facts that there is serious fraud involving Ukraine aid. The Zalensky government is on alert for fraud since Zalensky knows that anyone in Ukraine stealing aid money or materials can cause aid to Ukraine to be shut down.
My concern is the timing of the audit push. Why wasn’t it done when the aid started instead of now that the silly reason of primaries and that the National election is a year 15 months away.

 

Can you quote any "Moskva propaganda" I've disseminated?

The point is, I would like the aid audited and you don't. You can tell yourself whatever you need to in order to justify preventing an audit, but usually those like you who oppose transparency do so because they have things they prefer to be hidden.

 

Kremlin propaganda disseminated by Russian milbloggers and pro Russian elements have claimed that aid is being stolen. You can look those “reports” up as well as I can. I believe that it is likely that minor cases of disappearing aid have occurred. The Ukrainian security have arrested people who attempted to steal and prevented stealing and recovered supplies that were stolen. These were extremely very few case. They did not affect the process of aid. I give you an example from the voting process in the US. There were a small handful of cases countrywide of fraud in voting yet even Barr admitted that those few small number of cases scattered countrywide did not affect the outcome of the 2020 election in any way. Ironically two of three cases of voter fraud that I heard about favored Trump. Likewise the few cases of stealing and attempted stealing of Ukraine aid are not acceptable but do not disqualify the aid to Ukraine. I never said that I apposed audit of the aid process. What I said is that this action of demanding audit at this time was politically motivated. You will recall that I said all aid for countries ‘A’ as in Albania through ‘Z’ as in Zambia need to be audited. You tried to use a cute tactic that ‘Z’ Zambia does not get much aid. So what my point was and is that we need to audit all aid to foreign countries. Therefore I am pro audit but opposed to using the power of the Congress for politically motivated action. No country is above being audited just as no person or organization is above the US law.

 

So in other words, no "Moskva propaganda" is required, the aid really needs to be audited. You just don't want it done.

It's OK I understand why.

 

Mike again and again you attempt to paint my comments incorrectly. Moskva’s propaganda is distributed in more multiple ways. Sometime directly from the Kremlin. Other times I directly from pro Russian bloggers other times from US pro Russian talking heads such as Tucker Carlson. No he is not alone.

You seem to drag out a comment of mine out of contest, or as an example I make, and then twist it or position it to make believe it was my only point.

Look here directly from by post. “Besides Moskva propaganda do you have any facts that there is serious fraud involving Ukraine aid” . That means Moskva propaganda is involved.. As I explained above there are direct and indirect source for the dissemination of Moskva’s propaganda.

 

https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/08...g-polish-ambassador-over-row-says-polands-pm/

“Ukraine made “mistake” summoning Polish ambassador over row, says Poland’s PM”


Poland’s prime minister has criticised Ukraine’s strong reaction to a Polish official’s suggestion that Kyiv should show more appreciation for the help his country has provided during the war.

Meanwhile, a senior figure in Poland’s ruling party has warned that it will be “much more difficult for Poland to continue to support Ukraine” if there are such disputes between the allies.”

I my opinion both Ukraine and Poland made mistakes in the way this was handled. It is true as the arrival says that “Poland has been one of Ukraine’s closest allies since Russia launched its full-scale invasion ….”

This type of dispute between allies should be handled behind a veil of diplomacy and discretion. Neither Zalensky nor the Polish PM are diplomats. Zalensky is a great spokesman for. Ukraine and human motivator who motivated EU, NATO countries and a few non NATO. countries to provide some form of assistance to Ukraine. Poland ranks I believe as the third highest contributor exceeded only by the U.S. and I think Germany.

Zalensky reminds me of someone who was absent the day diplomacy was covered in college or law school. The Polish PM is a politician but needs a refresher course in diplomacy IMO.

This agricultural products issue is a vital economic issue for Ukraine and a very important issue for Polish farmers. Some resolution needs to be worked out between Ukraine and EU. We all know that Russia caused this but the only way to solve this for good is to hurt Russia very very badly. Otherwise Putin will continue to extract a deathly price.

 

Well I think your insistence that only "Moskva propaganda" could be behind anyone wanting to audit Ukraine aid speaks for itself. Wanting accountability is a Russkie plot? I'm sorry, your opposition on that basis, is just absurd.

 

Again you are making up stuff. I gave you a prime example with Tucker He does both disseminates Kremlin crap and makes up stuff. Here read my quote. “Sometime directly from the Kremlin. Other times I directly from pro Russian bloggers other times from US pro Russian talking heads such as Tucker Carlson. No he is not alone.”. That does not say or even imply that it only come from the Kremlin. Mike you are spending so much time trying to show that I said something that I did not you are missing some posts and sources of debate.

 

No...you didn't give me an example by Tucker. Just saying the name "Tucker" isn't the same thing as evidence that he's distributing "Moskva propaganda." Give me the specific example where Tucker reported something sourced to "Moskva propaganda."

And more to the point, since you accused me of of reporting "Moskva propaganda," you should actually point out what exactly that was.

 

Hi Mike,

This happened in the Vietnam War, 'the only people who don't support the war are hippies and commies',
to summarize the point.

Same now, - the only people not in favor of giving Kyiv thousands of millions of dollars in offensive weapons,
including many thousands of big 6 inch fragmentation shells,
enough to destroy every habitable building in Eastern Ukraine,
are shills paid by Putin.

 

Mike it is well know that Tucker spouted anti Ukraine stuff