The Alternative Ukraine Thread

It’s why I’ve stopped writing thread posts, because having scratched the surface I can see the indoctrinated fanaticism just underneath the surface. I’ll hazard a guess and say that if I’d come here a year ago and argued the Covid vaccines were a scam I’d have been met with the same naked hostility. That’s slowly dissipating now, just as the propaganda about Ukraine will end when Russia gets its buffer zone against NATO and in a couple of years-time you’ll be hard pressed to get anyone to admit they thought Ukraine would win.

In the same way as those that cheered for Trump and his Singapore Summit with North Korea after he promised ‘Fire and Fury’ went very quiet when Trump came back best friends with Kim Jong-un, or the deafening silence when after 20 years the US and NATO combined abandoned Afghanistan. Did anyone really believe Trump would start a war on China’s border and China would look the other way? Or that after 20 years, NATO was just about to win in Afghanistan?

Facing reality means you’re independent, neither for one side or the other. Believing Ukraine could win against Russia is about as gullible as it gets and to say so isn’t cheering Putin on, it’s accepting the reality that Russia will win. It’s accepting that Ukraine does have Neo-Nazi militias, that it’s losing every battle it gets into and accepting that the promised millions that were going to fight to the last man fled west instead. When NATO told Zelensky they wouldn’t interfere militarily and start WW3, Zelensky also knew it was over.

The only die-hard believers left are lurking on forums sticking their tongues out at those pointing out the obvious.

 

You live in a fantasy world of Russian propaganda. Putler admitted that Russia has huge economical problems, because of the sanctions.
Its military has run out of steam and has to use 1980 and pre 1980 equipment.
The mopping up will be done now by the Ukraine.
Game over for Russia, set back for a generation.

 

Some lessons have to be learned over and over.


'He simply cannot be trusted:' World leaders slam Putin's attack on Odesa

 

When it's all over, I don't want to be the one who said, 'I told you so.'

 

When this is all over, the Russian Army will be a empty shell and its economy destroyed.

The big question will be can the Russian Federation survive, or will it fall apart like the USSR.

 

I admire your optimism, but destroying Russia’s economy has already been tried with sanctions and it didn’t work. While the world needs gas and oil, especially developing economies such as China and India, there will be no shortage of cash in Russia. It’s why it has also been busily buying up gold in the past few years, like China.

Like it or not, Russia already has its buffer zone and in every major battle the Ukrainian army has suffered defeats. Where you get your fantasies from must be the mainstream media. Everyone outside the west and many of us within it already know the reality.

Russia won’t fall apart like the USSR, because the countries within the USSR aren’t part of Russia anymore. There isn’t anything to fall apart, its one country now. You mean will its economy collapse, like China’s has been predicted to collapse any day now for decades?

Personally, I’m more worried about the recession that’s coming in the UK and it isn’t coming from Russia. I still vividly remember the 2008 crash that those with their heads up their backsides never thought would happen even though it was staring us in the face. Some people don’t learn and life must be full of constant surprises and shocks for them.

 

Nobody is going to force you out. Your other topics are fine in my book, however Putin Propagandists tend to get short shrift around here.

 

I am sorry you do not get it. Russian energy infrastructure is mainly directed to Europe. It is just developing the infrastructure to Asia, it will take 5 years and more to get to the same level as with Europe.

As Putler stated himself, the economic sanction already in place are causing serious problems for Russia. The Russian economy is falling apart.
Militarily, Russia has given it its best shot. Was soundly defeated at Kiev, very soundly. Lost its very finest in that fight.
Threw everything it had left into Luhansk and made marginal progress. Since then nothing.
I am ex-military, NCO, and understand military weapons, that was my job.
What have we seen on the battle field, T72 and T82, upgrade, but those are tanks I know since the middle to late 70s.
The T90 or T14, the most modern tanks of Russia, are either to complicated or to expensive for its industry to produce.
We have seen some T90s on the battled field, but they did not fare better than the 72 and 82. Which means they are actual Soviet junk.
They are called Turret ejectors. A fatal flaw in their designe.

Lets take a look at economy, besides fossil fuels, there is none. No chips production, no electronics production, no automotive companies, batteries, medical research, Bio companies, you name it. There is just nothing. Even its fossil fuel production depends on western tech.
Now it is all cut of, from all of that and the high tech companies of the West have pulled out of Russia.
You do not understand what it means for business software. Today they all need a internet connection, you have to verifi your account and regularly up date. If you do not do that, the software quits working. All softwares based on Microsoft quit working, Linux the same.
Tja globalism.

Your Russia is done in, because it has just this very thin layer of being a energy producer.

Even the Saudi knew what was coming, or might be coming and made a huge effort to transform into a high tech country.

I have a wish, show me were Russia, besides energy, has a hightech company. Just 1.

Please.

 

i have read history for fun for 50yrs..the german-russian WW2 was just murderous butchery on all sides, there were no 'GOOD GUYS'...i think that ukraine wants to be within the european unions banking system, and yes the us seems to have lied to Russia regarding NATO
we in the us dont know history well, because much the same can be said for the northern europeans, as the nazis recruited their own death squads there as well
this "war" is all about money as most are IMO

 

I’m pleased to hear my other topics are fine in your book. It’s not propaganda to state reality. Nowhere have I said I hope Putin wins. What I have said is that inevitable Russia will. Are you sure this isn’t a repeat of we’re winning in Afghanistan, Russians elect US Presidents, or there’s a deadly plague sweeping the planet and we’re all going to die unless we get vaccinated? As the small clique of personal attack posters pile in, I’m already getting posts deleted and warnings from moderators. The clock is ticking and my suitcase is packed …

 

No, I don’t get it. Russia isn’t in a competition to get to the same level as Europe which it took centuries for Europe to get where it is now.

The reverse economic sanctions are now causing major problems for Europe.

The Russian forces were not defeated at Kiev, there was no battle there.

The bulk of the Russian forces moved into Donbass, took Kherson and Mariupol along the way and have already got their buffer zone and are in the process of extending it.

I too am an ex-military NCO, although a long time ago. I’m not an armchair general though and what is happening now was obvious the minute NATO said it would not intervene militarily and left Ukraine to its fate.

Russia is a major energy supplier and OPEC are not stepping in to increase production. You don’t need high tech companies if you’ve got what everyone needs. Silicon Valley are not going to step in and supply the west with energy this winter. Hasn't everyone been saying the same thing about China for many years, that its economy is going to collapse tomorrow?

It’s nothing to do with weapons. Both sides are testing their newest stuff, but the end result will be defeat for the Ukraine. Thinking Ukraine are militarily defeating Russia is about as bizarre as it gets. If we gave Ethiopia western arms do you think it too might defeat Russia?

 

I’m serious. I haven’t seen this level of a divorce from reality since I was in North Korea a few years ago. Some of the nonsense spouted here beats any conspiracy theory forum in existence. Russia is still the USSR and the KGB exist? Ukraine has won every battle it’s lost? The Ukraine Nazi militias either don’t exist, or they’ve become freedom fighters and the Russians have become Nazis? Defeats become ‘an end to a combat mission’ and POW’s become ‘evacuees.’ Where on earth do you get this nonsense from? No wonder the outside world is laughing at you. For heaven’s sake, stay away from the mainstream media and focus on reality, not the poster.

 

Heh heh.

Alarm in the Russian nationalist information space continues to grow as the pace of Russian operations slows in the face of successful Ukrainian high-mobility artillery rocket system (HIMARS) strikes on key Russian logistics and command-and-control nodes. Moscow Calling, a medium-sized Russian Telegram channel with 31,000 subscribers, posted an appraisal of the entirety of Russian operations in Ukraine since February 24.[6] Moscow Calling defined three distinct phases of the war—the first spanning from initial invasion to the withdrawal of Russian troops from Kyiv, Sumy, and Chernihiv Oblasts and the second spanning between that point and the introduction of Western-provided HIMARS.[7] Moscow Calling notably defined the arrival of HIMARS as a distinct turning point in the war and stated that previously provided Western weapons systems (such as NLAWs, Javelins, Stingers, and Bayraktars) did very little against Russian artillery bombardment (they are not designed or intended to counter artillery attack), but that HIMARS changed everything for Russian capabilities in Ukraine.[8] Moscow Calling strongly insinuated that recent Ukrainian strikes on Russian warehouses, communication hubs, and rear bases are having a devastating and potentially irreversible impact on the development of future Russian offensives.[9]

Russian Offensive Campaign ...

 

The Pootster is reaching the end of the road.

Politics
Fortune
The Yale historian who predicted Trump’s fascist turn foresees Putin’s failure in Ukraine: ‘You pretend to win a war and we pretend to show enthusiasm’

 

You forgot to quote the source. It wouldn’t be the “Kyiv Post – Ukraine’s Global Voice” by any chance?

 

Who are your sources again? Russia news now or some ****?

 

Oh, don't worry about that. I get warnings and posts deleted, too. They're very reasonable around here.

Ok, point taken about Putin.

 

Well, that's the difference. I write my own content and don't use sources unless it's a quote that illustrates the point I'm making. Knowledge is a wonderful thing.

 

In other words, arming Ukraine with more capable offensive weaponry is turning the tide?

I guess all weaponry is offensive, but the gist of the support for Ukraine seems to have been helping them defend/push back so far. I'm not a military tactician so I'm not sure if that came across correctly.

 

If your quote is sourcing **** from "Russia #1 news, Comrade..." then what the hell are you quoting? If you can **** on their sources, then your sources can also be **** on.

And I get it. It's really hard to get non bias reporting on this **** right now. As most things are either pro West or pro East.

I've been trying to stick to Al Jazeera for the most part as I feel they are probably "slightly" pro Russia but feel much more impartial.

 

Would you prefer Washington Post?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/07/24/ukraine-himars-russia-us/

Last month’s arrival of the first of what are now a dozen U.S. multiple-launch precision rocket systems, known as HIMARS, has already been a game changer, soldiers here said this week.

 

I frequently turn to Al Jazeera to get another perspective. Though they say "cannot be independently verified" far too often.

 

No, I prefer explanations from the individual, not from the media. Anyone can wander around the Internet and get third-party opinions. If people are going to quote media as reality they’re going to get a very warped world view. Unfortunately, many do and it’s why they sound so far removed from reality.

 

It's because most news can't be verified as it's based on editorial opinions. The answer is to have a selection of news from various sources. It's why if people only use CNN or Fox, the same news story is often completely different. If we use only western media we obviously get a one sided view and given the amount of propaganda, that's very often not true.

 

Source (Moscow Calling) is named in the text. Here are links.
[6] https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/9041; https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/9040

[7] https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/9041; https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/9040

[8] https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/9041; https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/9040

[9] https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/9041; https://t.me/m0sc0wcalling/9040