The Alternative Ukraine Thread

Well, if it can help Ukraine have a better fighting chance against Russia, I see no problem with it.

 

Putin thinks he'll break America's will in Ukraine, but he's wrong, says the CIA director (msn.com)

There will be an alliance of U.S. Forces on the side of Ukraine and there will be a fighting chance for the Ukrainian forces to win more battles against Russia. Regardless on what Putin says or does, Putin could have his back against the wall.

 

Let’s get back to reality​

There are people here who if told the earth travels around the sun wouldn’t believe it, attack the poster, the evidence and call it a conspiracy theory.

There’s a reason I called this the Alternative Ukraine Thread. It was to remove the rose tinted glasses many have.

Eastern Europe is one big 20th century graveyard. This is where the Nazis and communists fought it out. The land of concentration camps and Gulags, of mass graves and outright savagery. It didn’t go away with the flick of a switch and they all became independent democratic societies after the collapse of the USSR. It’s why the European Union took them over as soon as they became independent to stop them setting about each other again.

It wasn’t a big change for many nationalistic East European countries to slide into National Socialism and later into a communist dictatorship, but it is a big change to get used to democracy.

Scratch the surface of any one of these East European countries and there’s a horror story underneath waiting to get out which will take a couple of generations to remove. The effects of a half century of authoritarianism doesn’t disappear overnight.

Eastern Europe is where the Ukrainian Nazi militias did their bit of ethnic cleansing from 1941 to 1944 and resumed from 2014 to 2022 and the Serbians in 1999. It’s not a conspiracy theory, its basic recent history knowledge.

What happened when the US helped overthrow democratically elected Yanukovych and replace him with western puppet Turchynov and gave him carte blanche independence? The Nazi militias immediately emerged and aided and trained by NATO began to slaughter the ethnic Russians in the Crimea and Donbas regions. Whether you’re for or against the consequences, Russia stepped in to stop the slaughter, just as NATO previously stepped in to stop the slaughter of Albanians in Serbia.

Is Russia immune from all this? Of course not, 70 years of a dictatorship lingers and I’ve no doubt later details will emerge of some pretty nasty goings on.

If you’re going to cry crocodile tears and try to outdo each other in righteous indignation, at least learn a bit of history first and then your posts won’t sound as if they came from clueless snowflakes.

 

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The US didn't overthrow anyone. The Ukrainians did that, seeking to free themselves from Russia. You have simply buried your propaganda, but it can still be identified.

The Russian "Firehose of Falsehood" Propaganda Model
https://www.rand.org › pubs › perspectives

We characterize the contemporary Russian model for propaganda as “the firehose of falsehood” because of two of its distinctive features: high numbers of ...​

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If Ukrainians were killing Ukranians in the Donbas. That's an eternal stuggle/issue that has nothing to do with Russia.

This was never about Nazis. It's a land grab ffs. The "everyone I fight is a Nazi" narrative is drummed up to help sell people on a war that you started. Russia has no plans of giving up Crimea. It will not give up the land it took this year. That's how you know it was never about Nazi's.

Ukraine is very wealthy in resources...and Russia wants that. Putin wants as much back from the old Soviet Union as he can get in his life time. He compared himself to Peter the Great ffs who was a conquerer.

That's it. That's the sum of the reason why they are now in Ukraine.

 

All you've done is echo the media and ignored facts. Let's give you some.

The Ukrainians were killing ethnic Russians, or those who spoke the language. If the Mexican government ever sanctioned the killing of Americans living in Mexico, see what would happen.

It’s the Ukrainian Neo-Nazis who were doing the killing.

I didn’t start any war, I’m a UK citizen living in England.

I don’t know how many times I’ve said this, but google ‘Azov Battalion’ and look at the images. Those are not pretend Nazis.

If all that had never happened what is now happening wouldn’t have either. Ukraine was independent with no problems for nearly a quarter century, until the US interfered and it blew up into a civil war.

Western politicians knew years ago what was happening and let it carry on.

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Of course you are.

 

Two facts you can't dispute.

Ukranians were killing ukranians = a Ukranian problem.
Russia is not going to give up the territory it now has. Ever. Even if they removed all of the "nazis".

Those two facts are indisputable. The rest is just you window dressing. Trying to obfuscate or distract from the real intentions and motivations as to why Putin is now in Ukraine.

 

Lumping the two groups of Ukrainians together into one category makes it all sound so easy.

That is a conjecture.

You have expressed an opinion and one that has been repeated many times because it is a restatement of the official dogma.


It's a weird situation because when Joe Biden said 'unprovoked' it was remarkable how many people believed it even though it wasn't true and they don't believe most of what Joe says.

 

Russian disinformation debunked.


Zelensky responds to report of 'serious health condition'

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky posted a video from his office to reassure his country that he is well, after what he said was a fake news report that he was hospitalized.

'I have never felt as good as now' »

 

This is another example.^^

The Russian "Firehose of Falsehood" Propaganda Model
https://www.rand.org › pubs › perspectives

We characterize the contemporary Russian model for propaganda as “the firehose of falsehood” because of two of its distinctive features: high numbers of ...

 

I don't stand on the Left, nor necessarily on the Right either, but am against unnecessary wars.

 

“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice, — is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.”

― John Stuart Mill, Principles of Political Economy

 

~ Another point of view from someone we all know ...

https://youtube.com/shorts/505uQahvKvg?feature=share

 

Russia teetering on the brink?
The Washington Post
Russia to 'run out of steam' soon in Ukraine: U.K. intelligence chief
ASPEN, Colo. — The chief of Britain’s intelligence service said that Russia’s military campaign in Ukraine was likely to “run out of steam” in the coming weeks, amid shortages of material and manpower, as Moscow’s invasion is about to enter its sixth month.

“They will have to pause in some way,” Richard Moore, the chief of MI6, said in remarks at the Aspen Security Forum — rare public remarks by the serving head of British intelligence. Russian forces had likely lost around 15,000 troops, he said, calling the number a “conservative estimate.” That’s roughly the number of casualties Russia’s military suffered over the course of 10 years during its war in Afghanistan, Moore noted.

A pause by Russian forces would “give the Ukrainians the opportunity to strike back,” Moore said Thursday. He said that the morale of Ukrainian forces remains high and the military is receiving powerful weapons from the West. Moore urged the flow of weapons to continue so that Ukraine could either prevail in the war or be in a stronger position to negotiate with Russia.

He also praised the level of Western solidarity since the Russian invasion. “NATO has been proved extraordinarily united in the face of this,” said Moore, noting that Sweden had abandoned 200 years of military nonalignment to seek membership of the alliance, along with Finland.

Moore described Russia’s invasion as an “epic fail” that hadn’t accounted for the stiff resistance the invading forces would face. “They clearly completely misunderstood Ukrainian nationalism. They completely underrated the degree of resistance the Russian military would face.”

Russian officials also didn’t accurately convey to President Vladimir Putin the challenges of the invasion and the costs to Russia, Moore said. In Putin’s government “it doesn’t pay to speak truth to power.”. . .

 

The newest Russian propaganda hit is that some Ukrainian fighters are super-human mutant soldiers whose genes were enhanced in US financed bio-labs.

Russia Says It’s Losing Because Ukraine Has Experimental Mutant Troops Created in Secret Biolabs
https://www.thedailybeast.com/russi...ntal-mutant-troops-created-in-secret-biolabss
Nevermind the myriad reports of shoddy equipment and Russian troops ditching the war, the real setback, according to lawmakers, was mutant Ukrainian soldiers.

Testing of Ukrainian POWs’ blood, they claimed, uncovered “a range of diseases” that suggest they were secretly experimented on “for military purposes.”

“And we see: the cruelty and barbarity with which the military personnel of Ukraine behave, the crimes that they commit against the civilian population, those monstrous crimes that they commit against prisoners of war, confirm that this system for the control and creation of a cruel murder machine was implemented under the management of the United States,” Yarovaya was quoted telling reporters.

“And those performance enhancing drugs that they are still given in order to completely neutralize the last traces of human consciousness and turn them into the most cruel and deadly monsters also confirm this,” she claimed.

 

~ I believe she is referring to caffeine ...

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Zelenskyy says there's no point in negotiating with Russia until it gets 'smashed in the face' and all Ukrainian territories are liberated (msn.com)
Zelenskyy says there's no point in negotiating with Russia until it gets 'smashed in the face' and all Ukrainian territories are liberated

• Zelenskyy told WSJ that Ukraine can't agree to a ceasefire until it takes its territory back from Russia.
• A ceasefire "means a pause that gives the Russian Federation a break for rest," Zelenskyy said.
• He said Russia would just resume its offensive later on after regaining strength.

It sounds like Zelenskyy means business and will do whatever possible to get what he wants.

I think Zelenskyy realizes that Putin can't be reasoned with, and it will be a day of reckoning.

 

Russians are running out of troops.

World
Ukrayinska Pravda
Russians have so few troops left, they make one battalion out of three intercepted call

 

What are you drinking, please let me know so I do not touch that stuff. Or is it just the water in Russia.

 

It is a 3rd world military power, like Egypt or Sadam's Iraq.

 

The only ones who will get rooted out, are the Russian criminals, Putler and his gang.

 

Oh wow, you really are a Putin Propagandist! Makes sense now, with all the Western hate and alt. reality in your other threads.

Here's my evidence and prediction. You'll disappear from this forum in under 3 months once you've sown your seed and your tenure is up.

You think you're being clever, but don't worry, comrade, we've seen your type come and go here many times.

 

Oh I’ve no doubt I’ll be forced out eventually with personal attacks. That’s not a surprise for forums of left and right extremism. But you know, if I’d have been a cheerleader for the left, your post would have been a copy of someone on the right, the irony of which probably escapes you. Still, at least you’ve classified me as an “alt. right comrade”, which is an oxymoron if ever there was one.

I’m no one’s propagandist, but I can see through much of the nonsense based on beliefs which is why wrote the thread. I note you haven’t said anything about the topic you’ve just personally attacked the poster, always a sign of low information.

 

Keep dreaming, it's already over bar the mopping up. The end of NATO's expansion, because that's what caused all this.