The death penalty and religion

As you please, dear heart! If you worship statues, good luck, but I'm talking about the equivalent of graven images you know.

 

For you to claim that I am abusing the holy Scriptures is shameful. I am following the exactly what the Orthodox Church has said on the Death penalty. Life is sacred and that includes all life. If you wish to claim that Jesus says it it ok to kill people go ahead. But I and millions of other followers of Christ disagree with your "personal" view.

 

Oh and if you want to talk about criminals and forgiveness the last person Christ saved before his own death was a condemed prisoner hanging on the cross next to him.

 

Millions of Christians agree with my view and disagree with your "personal" view, so continue to cast yourself headlong into wars of attrition and see where it gets you. The only difference between us and your type is that we don't abuse the teachings of Christ to further our opinions.

Moreover, the opponants of the death penalty don't consider the life of victims of crime to be sacred. They don't come out in numbers to decry the violence committed against innocent people. They only are motivated into political activism when a vicious murderer is about to be executed. He's their champion and their cause. Not a tear is shed for the victim, but the animal who murdered the victim, HIS life is precious.

I find nothing more repugnant and morally bankrupt than the majority of those abolitionists so quick to defend evil and so reticent to defend the sanctity of the life of those who were wrongfully killed. It's more than sickening.

 

My view is not personal it is the OFFICIAL possition of the Orthodox Church. We view all life as sacred and if you wish to make murder of any one as being acceptable to Christ, then truely you are lost. Becuase when you execute a person you are denying them the chance to seek salvation. No sin is beyond the power of Christ.

Now I am not talking about politics here I am talking about forgiveness and sacrednes of all life God has placed on this world. You call a criminal an animal, perhaps that is the first thing you should look at. Becuase Christ called ALL people to him for forgiveness. Even the worst amongst us.

 

I was indeed open to the grace, though not particularly cooperative at first, and it took time.

 

Nice post.

 

I agree entirely with your post. Jesus' life was the ransom for sin and death.

 

....and good point!

 

It is the position of the Latin Church as well: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm



2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68


(my emphasis)

 

The same here. I was once very pro-death penalty. Now I'm mostly anti-death penalty. (still have some beliefs that there are occasions that the death penalty is appropriate)

 

My motive in that example was not revenge, but protection of society (aka the rabid dog theory). When an eye for an eye was formulated, it was justice. Before that time, it was a death (and the death of your family) for an eye.

Well, the story was that before the events in Silence of the Lambs, he killed and maimed several caretakers. I think the small amount of benefit from studying him would be worth the extra risk to human life. Again, this is an extreme fictional case.

Hmm, the absolute worst fictional case I could think of.

 

Thats a lie. Can you prove this accusation?

Quantrill

 

I'm sorry to correct you, but your citation is out of context and alone fails to acknowledge that the Catholic Church has always considered the administration of justice, including the death penalty, to be the purview of the state. Here's what all too often gets left out:

2266 Preserving the common good of society requires rendering the aggressor unable to inflict harm. For this reason the traditional teaching of the Church has acknowledged as well-founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime, not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, the death penalty. 1897-1898 For analogous reasons those holding authority have the right to repel by armed force aggressors against the community in their charge. 2308

In fact, as I stated earlier, the Catholic Church's position on capital punishment is not unlike its position on the Just War doctrine that again gives advice but bequeaths discernment and final decision to the provincial authorities.

In order to fulfill the terms laid out, a guilty murderer would have to be locked up in solitary confinement with no human contact for the rest of his life. Murderers locked up in general population can and often do murder again and so the state has not fufilled its obligation to protect all sectors of society. If this obligation were to be carefully observed, the only course of action is the death penalty or absolute, unbroken isolation, which is a form of torture.

I do respect the Church's position and believe that most murderers should not face the death penalty, but rather life in prison. But in some cases where the crime is committed in plurality or is so heineous as to shock the moral sense, I believe it's appropriate to apply the death penalty. Unsurprisingly, the justice system works precisely that way where jurors are reticent to apply death except in the most extreme cases in line with Catholic teaching on the subject.

We can have an honest disagreement here. What enrages me is those who pervert the teachings of Christ to further their opinion on the matter. The words of Christ are words straight from heaven and should always be treated as such. They are not meant to be fodder for our petty earthly factions. By doing this, we drag the name of Christ through the mud, and I've most certainly been guilty of this myself. I think the Church's position is exactly correct, offering advice but maintaining the separation between the kingdom of heaven and the governments of men.

 

I heard from people drinking their coffee with salt so they are able to be angry about the catholic church.

Saint Augustine was a great man - a very great man - but he made also some mistakes.

First: The kingdom of god is not our kingdom it's still his kingdom and it will be kindom wherever god likes that it will be. Second: You are using the christian religion for your arguments - but you don't allow anyone else to use the christian religion as an argument. Otheriose oyu owud say what your church is. To show to you that you are wrong in case if the christian religion is very easy: The catholic church is against death penalty. All big christian churches worldwide are against death penalty.

That all nations in the world are able to use death penalty is not the point. The point is that death penalty is meanwhile as superflous as a struma. Even in case a very agressive psychopath would murder people we would need such a sociopath to study exactly what made him to a sociopathic or psychopathic mass murderer.

But the christian religions says we are no only able to live in love - it says also god loves it if we are doing so. We don't need reasons to fight for everyones life. I a murderer dies then this helps no one and it is only one dead person more - but if we are able to learn from this human being and his way then we have propably a chance to stop the next evil deed before it happens because we are able to recognize sick signals much more early and much more easy. There could be chances for everyone and even for the soul of such a murderer.

http://youtu.be/1PdyHcJgYI4

 

Having the right to do something is not the same as it being morally correct. Jesus himself said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's; render unto God what is God's."

Further--the Catechism clearly states "the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."

That is saying it is always wrong, but there may be in some instances that are un-thought of and cannot be imagined at this time where it may be necessary.

That is revenge, not justice. "Justice is mine sayeth the Lord."

That is true, but I do hope you pray on it. I used to think as you do, but I found it incompatible with what Jesus calls us to be.

 

One of many verses that draws the line of separation between the kingdom of God and the kingdoms of men. Thanks for bringing it up, though I don't think it helps your argument.

And the death penalty is applied rarely. Most people who murder don't pose such a grave risk to society that the only practical response is execution, but some do. Take Charles Manson, who on the extreme end of the scale, vows even to this day to kill anyone he can the first chance he gets. He's locked up tight and secure at the Corcoran State Prison and tight security measures are in place, especially when it comes to human contact. Yes, it's very expensive to keep this man incarcerated, but more to the point, society is at risk every moment he's alive. One careless act from a corrections officer and he will get his chance to kill again. Prudence demands that he be put down like any rabid dog and no government can be blamed for doing just that.

There are people who pose a perpetual danger to society. They kill inside and outside of prison. Their crimes are atrocious and unconscienable. The state has every right to speed them to the judgement throne of God post haste.

Nope. It is not saying that it's always wrong and it's not saying that the government doesn't have the right to execute criminals. This is perhaps one of the most misread passages in the CCC because people read into it what they want it to say.

Let's put that in the right context. The vengeance of God is carried out by government and rightly so:

Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

My minds not changing. You see, I treasure life and hold it to be sacred. Because I do, I believe that society ought to levy the most severe penalty when it's wrongfully taken as a message and warning to those who would do likewise. I believe when capital punishment is removed completely, the sanctity of life is diminished, the crime of taking it wrongfully not as strongly punished. I believe it sends the wrong message. I am pro life, therefore I fully support capital punishment.

 

Not sure what that means.

That may be true, but I think you'll find scant company in citing the Just War Doctrine as an example. After all, that doctrine is official Church teaching.

Huh? The kingdom of God is our kingdom, or at least mine.

Actually, my arguments supporting the death penalty are all very secular, but I do refute those who try to enlist religion to advance the error that Jesus taught against capital punishment.

Oops. Wrong on that one and by a long shot. The Catholic Church has had a long and illustrious tradition of supporting capital punishment and the Protestant churches have likewise. The strong antipathy toward CP harbored by a majority of Catholics is a rather new trend in context. And a majority of Protestants support CP.

With lengthy appeal processes, I'm sure that both sides can get their way. Study them during the 20 years they appeal their sentence and then stick a needle in them.

I'm actually able to understand both sides of this argument, and can see from both perspectives. Many of us who support the death penalty do so because we're very pro life and because we believe it to be an act of love. Justice being carried out is a salve that vindicates the victim and reaffirms the values that society holds dear; upholding life as the most treasured commodity we have. So those of us who support the death penalty are not death lovers or full of hate. Quite the opposite. And I believe those who oppose it are also doing so out of the most unsullied sense of conviction. Perhaps we should get to know each other better. Yes?

 

Has it ever occurred to you that NOT supporting the death penalty is also to knowingly support murder?

Who is to blame when an incorrigible murderer, who is wrongfully exonerated or wrongfully allowed to plea bargain to a lesser charge, is released back into society, and commits yet another murder?

Surely, the Criminal Justice System, as a human instrument is NOT infallible. However, it is tasked with having to make life and death decisions, and there is no way around this.

To forego the death penalty when it is clearly appropriate, as is the case with violent, incorrigible criminals, is to put others in serious danger. When such a criminal kills a guard, a prison nurse, or another inmate, (or even someone outside the prison in the event of an escape) the CJS has just as much blood on its hands as it would if had wrongfully convicted and executed an innocent man.

 

Not knowingly. Most CP abolitionists aren't willingly supporting murder, but they should realize that a failure to apply harsh penalties to murder has the effect of encouraging it.

And this has happened numerous times. Also parolled murderers have kidnapped children, sexually abused them, and then murdered them. The death penalty may be the only sure defense against bleeding heart parole boards.

And when the death penalty was first given to Noah, the probability of error was far greater than it was today, yet God still saw fit to trust that man's justice would prevail.

I finally feel like I have an ally here. The CP abolitionists simply won't look at the consequences of their beliefs. Their desire to feel more pious than others is sickening. It's a false sense of self-righteousness on the part of some. They have a warped view of mercy, as if the justice system is supposed to forgive and turn the other cheeks. They've muddled the teachings of Christ with the perogatives of the state and have not learned to separate the two as Jesus taught.

 

I guess I could show to you now very clear what you are interpretating in a wrong way - but it would make no sense to do so. If you would really understand and follow the teachings of the catholic church then there would be no conflict now.

For sure I never will be a member of your kingdom. Only Jesus Christ - and no one else - decides who will be a part of his heaven in the end.

The structure of your arguments is very confusing. It looks to me like you made a decision on no special reason execept some negative emotions and afterwards you are looking for this arguments what could justify your psychological situation. It doesn't look to me that you are looking for truth - even if it could be painful to find this truth. But truth is the fullfillment of love.

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All big christian churches are against death penalty.

I never said so. I just simple said that death penalty is not compatible with the christian religion. And I don't know any christian authority saying something else.

To be honest: I don't have the feeling I would like to know you better.

http://youtu.be/buQpcpQqdKo

 

You should not cry so loud. Always someone else will be able to cry louder. Truth depends not in the loudness - it depends on love.

http://youtu.be/ax95uv9RphM

 

Sorry--I was trying to make sure the important stuff was focused on--didn't mean to come across as screaming.

 

I didn't think you were screaming. Your passion and sincerity show on this issue show through on your posts and I appreciate it.

 

I think it's quite clear Bible-jesus would be offended by just war doctrine.

Considering the quote, I suppose it is commendable of them to not take an absolutist stance. But the whole thing, the sheer extent of it, gives me a feeling they're hiding something, that there's something between the lines I better not miss. Because the real point was made at the end. Execution should never be allowed because it disallows the possibility of redemption. What more need be said?