so your guess is based on what? i mean you confuse me with majority and vast majority, what do you mean by vast majority? true now, but before this century, most population were nomadic rather than in cities i think phrases like this are enough un-defined to make it TRUE, if we agree that polytheism was majority do you have a limit for saying that this is true or no, like for example, if polytheist were 60%, 70% , 80% ?? at what level you accept that the phrase is true from history stories, one will guess that all Arabs were polytheist except few individuals, and some ghettos for jews, and remnant of christians scattered in Mecca, history tells about few christian individuals who were there! so it is difficult to give accurate estimate, especially with all those tribes in centre of Arabia from all your stories and what i read which i don't claim being top books, it looks like that christianity once flourished in Arabia, but lost ground to polytheism
Read my post, its stated there and Marlowes for an example of a vast majority. A simple majority means more than half. Can I suggest you use a dictionary? Well by its very nature nomadic habitat is spotty. Are you sure most of the population were nomadic? While this is no doubt true of the desert interior this surely wasnt where most of the population were to be found. The thousands of Christians massacred in the fertile regions in the south west for example werent nomadic. Your Nestorian Bahraini ancestors werent nomadic were they? I think it likely that these richer patches of land had comparatively large populations and formed a majority of the population of the whole of Arabia. Maybe youve been influenced by hate sites making out Arabs were all nomads riding around the desert on camels? I was asking for your opinion, so it is where you consider the threshold to be that is relevant. I also asked originally how true, implying a graded truth. So being as the majority of the population of Bahrain (the modern state), are not Bahrainis you would agree with the following phrase: Bahrain is a country of foreigners, would you? Your history stories must be very different then than those told here then where Jewish and Christian tribes are spoken of no differently than other Arab tribes not to mention settled Christian communities of tens of thousands. I havent read about Jewish ghettos in Arabia at that time, can you name some? Are you sure these werent Islamic lessons rather than history ones? The book Arabia and the Arabs: From the Bronze age to the Coming of Islam: Up until about the fourth century AD almost all the inhabitants of Arabia were polytheists. Page 139 You can then read about some of the revolutionary changes to Judaism and Christianity. Whether this account is true or not, it is certainly the case that in the fourth to sixth centuries Christianity made major inroads into Arabia. Page 147 source: Arabia and the Arabs: From the Bronze age to the Coming of Islam
which dictionary you suggest! so, what is your idea of what Vast means in term of percentages? at least for the 19th century, yes i am sure. look for voyages in Arabia older people tells of how those Bedouins swarmed the desert of Arabia why surely? irrelevant! first, we do not know if they were in thousands or not, second those christians existed century or more before the birth of Mohamed at what frame of time they lived? how much they were? that is not what history stories tell! for example in first battles between Mecca pagans and Muslim Medina, it was about 1000 against 300 something!! that tells about the population of these cities someone can look at numbers of tribes like Hawazen in the area, or Tamim, or other big tribes of Arabia may be, and may be not !!! what could have influenced you? it was me asking about your opinion, since you brout the question of "vast" majority. i never thought of that as "vast" majority or not explain to me, exactly what do you mean by that taking your assumption as true, i will say no. Because the phrase implies predominance and ownership. so Bahrain is Arabic, even if non-arabic non-bahraini population is more! it is islamic, because that is the predominant religion. It is sunni, because that is Govt supported sect even that shiite are majority the stories told here does not imply that these communities were majority, nor even near it, or even significant (AT) the time of the birth of Mohammed around Madinah, and in kHeybar it does not look like he is saying they were majority
An English one. Id say something over at least 95%. Vast is more then great. 51% would be a tiny majority. Quotes please, like the ones I brought you. Are these stories about swarms of people reliable? There are plenty of older people of Western Europe who tell current stories of swarms of Muslims despite them being small minorities. Surely because Arabia is like Australia, north Africa and other large arid regions where people settle mainly along the edges and not in the barren interior since this is where the land can support the greatest number of people. Nomadic tribes are found chiefly where the land cannot support sustained agriculture. This kind og human society is typical of very thin population densities. Arid conditions in deserts puts severe limits on population numbers. No its not irrelevant as it is an indication. You claim we dont know whether they numbered into the thousands and yet we know a lot more about these settled people than we do about the nomadic tribes. The fact that there were thriving Christian communities in the previous century to the time we are interested in is an indication that such communities likely existed at that time too. From 5th century to the arrival of Islam AD 629, Im surprised you didnt know. Why are you interested in numbers when you werent when it came to foreigners in Bahrain? They were dominant according to you thats what counts right? Maybe you should learn to distinguish between history and stories? I suspect the actual situation was far more complex than your history stories suggest. The Mecca pagans had surely become sedentary after their nomadic ancestors had seized control of the oasis. I suspect too that they had mixed their own polytheism with Judaism and Christianity like what we see in present day Africa or anywhere where nomadic people change their lifestyle to sedentary, cultures blend. This would also explain the virgin Mary among the idols. There would be a tendency towards polarization and Muslims would no doubt do what you do when you call me a Wahabi. Not being a Christian, Jew or Muslim Im neutral not to mention a cultural ballast of critical analysis. You are beating about the bush. A graded truth is one which has degrees. You will say no and yet before all that mattered was a majority! Now its a matter of what may be implied and suddenly the character of the recipient audience becomes an issue. So now a Shia child born in Bahrain is born into a Sunni world and not a Shia world! Majority doesnt matter anymore to you right? If they werent significant then they wouldnt be part of the story would they? There was a Jewish ghetto in Medina? Why do you describe Khaybar as a ghetto? I think you dont know what a ghetto is but Im intrigued to know what you think it is. Again you are not interested in majority anymore. What is important in this quote is that it makes clear that Christianity was part of the Arabia world Mohammed was born into, agree?
Hi Tyrerik, I'm sorry that you did.nt understand my meaning , if I gave it more thought I could have said "overwhelming majority " In the absence of a Census Bureau + guys on Camels counting tribe members , I'm afraid reliable population figures not available , it can only be a quess. However , if you're convinced that Jews + Christians formed the majority population 7th C - Arabia, then nothing can persuade you otherwise. cheers.
It doesn't make any difference. FreeBahrain started with the notion of majorities to suddenly decide that wasn't really a criteria. I'm not at all convinced Jews and Christians together were a majority but I am reasonably convinced now that monothesim was very much a part, just as polytheism, of the Arabia Mohammed was born into and any suggestion otherwise is diverging from the truth.
Enough to be significant, is that hard to understand? No it doesn't, truth exists in its own right. Choosing a source which leads you to believe a falsehood doesn't change the truth. Understanding that and being able to recognise the truth when it isn't convenient are important criteria in a modern society. How would a Chinese/African concept of truth differ from that of conforming to reality? Disagreeing on what the truth is on a particular subject is not the same as disagreeing on the very concept.
The Arabs of Arabia were not primarily nomadic. Tribes centered on Oases all over the country.. and their nomadic kinsmen took the herds of the "townies" out seeking pastures on shares. The nomads would periodically return to the settled core tribes to exchange livestock for goods produced in the villages. And like Palestine.. the overall population was tiny.
O K - So we're not discussing ABSOLUTE TRUTHS are we ? simply disagreeing on whether Arabia had at that time significant Jews/Christian population, right ?. , IMO - there are also diffferent "realities" + truths . For example does "truth " in all Islamic belief, "exist in its own right" or the "truths " according to Christians/ Jews/Hindus/Rastafarians etc. with ALL its numerous denominations ? I was taught to belief in the Holy Trinity - as being REAL AND THE TRUTH , but is it ? Would our non-Christian Chinese + African friends share/accept such "Truths " ? . So is there any absolute or real truth in this complex and uncertain world? I dunno , would'nt swear to it, especially on politics and religion, and dubious 6-7th century population statistics . . . OR CURRENT NEWS REPORTS , read my siggy- by Walter Lippman . - -------------------------- Margot , I concur re Tribes being centered on Oases etc. and Arabia tiny population.
It was explained in the program, AFAI understand its tradition- perhaps to avoid following idolator's + image worshippers , bot sure, but may I suggest that you watch the program again, cheers. btw - tomorrows episode covers Key events in Muhammed's life, including the eight-year war with the Meccan tribes. ...
O K send your protest to BBC and request that they make another program exclusively for us non-muslims, btw - I think you failed to understand the word "perhaps " in my earlier post.
I think I made that abundantly clear and the issue. You are talking about another meaning of truth not to be confused with the issue. There is an objective truth here and no reason to delve into philosophical discussions about the meaning of truth. Now if you and others are claiming that the statement accurately portrays Arabia at the time kindly expalin all the references to Christian and Jewish tribes, kings, leaders etc. and their place in the history of the period. I think you at least are aware that there wasn't talk of a few individuals and ghettos as FreeBahrain would have us believe. With the tiny population communities of thousands or tens of thousands of have to be significant presence don't they?
There wasn't a single town or oasis in Arabia that had populations of over 1000.. and most were far smaller... hundreds.
I don't think there can be much doubt that the BBC was treading on eggshells making this documentary. Selfcensorship when dealing with Islamic sensitive issues is well documented. I hardly think the same can be said for complaints to the BBC but perhaps you meant scared of Islamists should his name come out?
By 500 A.D., the traditional ritual of Arab worship was but one of a number of religious options. The Sabaeans of southern Arabia followed their own system of beliefs, and these had some adherents in the interior. Followers of pagan beliefs, as well as Hanifs, mentioned in the Quran and believed to be followers of an indigenous monetheistic religion, were widespread in the peninsula. In addition, there were well-established communities of Christians and Jews. Along the gulf coast were Nestorians, while in Yemen Syrian Orthodox and smaller groups of Christians were to be found among beduin and in monasteries that dotted the northern Hijaz. In the sixth century, shortly before the birth of Muhammad, the city of Najran in what is now southwestern Saudi Arabia had a Christian church with a bishop, monks, priests, nuns, and lay clergy, and was ruled by a Jewish king. Jews were an important part not only of the Yemeni population, but also of the oases communities in the region of Medina. source
