The real cancer

Well, I am busted. I have spent the last hour going over the statements of RA and see now that my initial reading was made in haste and subsequently I overlooked that portion about the mention of free will. I am now forced to amend my statement of agreement with his statements. Gods all knowing capability would not have any affect upon free will .. I apologize to all the readers for my being too hasty in making that response ... this just goes to show that I, like everyone else, am subject to error. Guess that is a signal for me to get more sleep each night instead of staying up till sunrise.

Anyway BFOJ. I appreciate you bringing that to my attention. Thank You.

 

Of course it's based on the Bible. Read the New Testament: Jesus is the embodiment of God's grace and mercy. How much more mercy can you want?

I have a feeling that we're misunderstanding each other, which may be due to the fact that I'm not a native English speaker. Let me try to o clarify what I mean by 'luck': I don't see my faith as a merit of my own doing, like anything else I received it from God. Nobody can force themselves to have faith. You either have it or you don't. And it's wonderful to have it: it gives me solace, strength and makes me rejoice in the Lord.

Nothing is impossible for the almighty Lord: He forgives whatever He wants to forgive.

I did not quite get your second sentence: Do you seriously believe He sends babies, mentally handicapped people and those who never heard of Jesus or had an opportunity to believe in Him to hell? I can't see how anybody who loves their fellowmen could bear such a belief without being in tears all the time.

To see faith as a God-given gift is anything but non-scriptural:
Starting off with Matthew 16:17 and then Romans 12:3, 1 Corinthians 12:7-9, Ephesians 2:8-9, Philippians 1:29, James 1: 16-18 ….

Now as a Protestant I agree with you that you can't 'buy' salvation with good deeds. It's „sola gratia“ indeed.

„Sola fide“ is slightly more complicated, and dependent of what you see as true faith and its fruits. Maybe some who proclaim faith will find themselves in unexpected trouble when it comes to salvation. Note Matthew chapter 7, especially verse 21: „Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.“
Also even though Luther wasn't especially fond of it it might be unwise to totally marginalize the Epistle of James:
James 2:14-26:

And last but not least: Paul's famous words about love in 1. Corinthians 13:

So maybe while faith in Christ enables us to get a grasp of God's grace, it needs to lead to love and an heartfelt attempt to do good to be truly completed. And maybe those who lack faith, but have an abundance of love and care for their fellowmen are closer to Christ than they know they are.

??? Christianity is a religion.

As it happens I've done some Christian hospice work myself for a while and let me tell you: you don't desperately try to make death-bed conversions, your job is to accompany the dying in their last days, to help them and their family to cope with the situation, you offer to listen and to have talks about the topics they deem important at their pace.

Why do so many Christians sound as if they actually enjoy the thought of other people burning in hell? We're indeed asked to bring the Good News of His Love to the world and not the 'News of Doom, Gloom and Condemnation'.

Well, we'll see whether your assumption is right or not on the day that we die. I don't remember who it was, but I read somebody famous who was about to die said: "In ten minutes I will know more than you do."

Until then let's pray for everybody's soul to be saved by the grace of God and try to be good followers of Christ ourselves.

 

The blind following of a fairytale and belief in a flying pink elephant is the REAL problem. To say otherwise shows your ignorance of the real world.
Your religion is nothing but a business and a crutch for weak minded fools.

 

I think perhaps you choked on my words "rightly so". This was not intended to mean I enjoy the thought of other people burning in hell, quite the contrary, I was just pointing out that this is part of God's plan. If He intends the non-believer to spend eternity out of His presence then who are we to try and sweet talk the issue to put God in a better light?

And on the issue of hell. None of us really know or understand the reality of this, instead we take the words of the Bible and try to make it fit our concept of what we think it is. For example, hell to me is a place of absence from God, a place of no hope, an eternal struggle within one's soul about what could have been. This to me would be worse than a physical or spiritual burning or any number of other things that come to mind.

Thanks for your questioning and responses for it helps me to grow in my Walk and understanding.

 

I too do not believe in fairytales and flying pink elephants so we're together on that one.

As with us all, we are all ignorant in many matters. I confess I'm ignorant in the things of the real world which I find probably not such a bad thing.

I don't have a religion, I have Jesus. Sure religion can be a business and often is but that's not the mold I'm cut from. Weak minded fools? This may be your response to something you don't understand and can't comprehend, have never had the experience of others, but to suggest that's what we are is in itself a foolish statement. Unless you've walked in another's shoes you don't have a clue as to why another person views life differently than you. You can only speak from your own perspective and that's all there is to it, nothing more nothing less.

The only crutch I've ever used was when I broke my leg in an auto accident when I was 10. You will someday come to find out who really needs the crutch.

 

Okie, thanks BFOJ.

 

This is you speaking for God again.

You have no idea whether or not God intervenes on the basis of faith. You do not know what God is up to ?

This is indeed the type of mindset that leads folks to blame bad things on "angering the Gods" so that burning folks or sacrificing children to "appease the Gods" is conducted.

This is exactly what Jesus is talking about when he warns about the false teachers that claim "God is here... God is there".

You do not know "how much faith" is required for God to be pleased or that there is some "amount required", for sickness to be prevented or that God would choose to intervene at all.

I sure hope you do not teach this belief to others.

Ideas have power and this one particularly so. If a person wants to hold this belief personally that is fine but to teach others this doctrine is not good.

The more folks that hold this doctrine the greater the possibility that these folks to get together and start harming others to appease God.

History is full of such examples and the Bible has examples as well.

As a counter argument I would urge you to look at Okinawa. The main religion of these Island people off the coast of Japan is ancestor worship. These folks have the longest average lifespan in the world.

Does this mean we should adopt ancestor worship to have better health ?

 

After I gave up on atheism, I read and dabbled in many religions including Buddhism, Paganism, Witchcraft, which is the oldest religion in the world (not to be confused with LeVay Satanism) and others until I found a form Christianity that made sense. I finished my education and used it as a tool to learn more about Christianity and other religions. Then I went to seminary to pursue and secure a masters degree in comparative religion and to make sure Christianity was the best choice. It was. So for me it was a detailed but convoluted journey. Only one trulu ignorant in the field philosophy and metaphysics even science would conclude there is no evidence to support the existence of God. That is not only I speaking but hundreds if not thousands of PhD Christian scientists and Philosophers would no doubt agree with me.

Rev A

 

With all due respect you have some queer ideas concerning religion. Can I ask if you are religious and if so what religion do you suscribe to if any?

Rev A

 

I admire your search for the truth. It seems you have put a fair bit of work into it.

For myself I feel that the message of Christ was a good one but that the Church has corrupted this message.

I do not think that Christ was a Buddhist, but do think his leanings were more Buddhist than what is found in general Christian ideology.

 

Thanks. I read a bit about the idea that Christ was a Buddhist. Not enough evidence. I agree that we may never know the exact truth about the life of Jesus due to many corruptions and down right perversion of the original (copies of) scriptures. The reasons are many, very, very numerous! One that jumps to mind is the emperor Constantine who had his hand in the corruption, but all of his meddling was not bad. So I can agree with you in that there has been some altering of the original meanings of biblical scripture.

I do not think the problem is fatal though. We must work with what we have. I believe the truth is still intact, and that emerging technologies and archeology will vindicate (and already has in some cases) the bible as it exists today as an accurate representation of scripture and its core meaning.

Rev A

 

Thanks for your post BFOJ. It seems we could clarify a lot of misunderstandings between the two of us, which is nice. And just in case that there's one more:

I would never doubt or question God's judgement.
But I think it would be human hybris to claim to absolutely know what the criteria and the outcome of His judgement will be. All I'm sure of is that all of us are at His mercy that has been shown in Jesus Christ.

I appreciate that a lot of Christians who did (and do) missionary work did so out of a deeply felt concern for heathens' and the unbelievers' souls that they believed to surely go to hell under the criteria they believed to be God's.
However, when I look at the history of quite a lot of this missionary work, the suffering it has caused, the hypocrisy and arrogant self-righteousness that was involved, my humble understanding of the scriptures sometimes makes me wonder whether its not so much the heathens and unbelievers who might find themselves in that place called hell but the missionaries themselves.

 

>>>>>>>excerpt;

We agree on some issues however I can not agree with this last thought. I am wondering, if you feel scripture is severely corrupted* what do you use to make decisions claims and comments like the one above if not the bible? Please include sources and or links?

* I feel that other things skewed some bible more than the church. Such as the methods used for the commission of the first Bible by Emperor Constantine, as I said earlier. However I also mentioned earlier Constantine also helped Christianity survive by making it the official religion of Rome. Anyway I feel the missionaries as long as they followed the bible to the best of their abilities would be heaven bound IMO.

Yes the well meaning missionaries harmed some indigenous culture, and some of it should have been harmed! In south America tens of thousands of men and women were killed annually, if not more*, sacrificed to their Gods ; many more were sacrificed by Aztecs and Mayans In recent times head hunting and cannibalism was practiced. So if some culture is lost perhaps its not so bad, considering the alternatives.

* estimates vary, there were eyewitness accounts by Spanish explorers.

Rev A

 

Nope! Wrong again! That is me speaking about scripture (not quoting scripture).

Mind reading again? When did atheists or non-theists start involving themselves with such fantasies as mind reading?

Such as what a lot of non God fearing people (people who do not accept God nor worship God -- nonn-theists) do as a past-time or as a means of invoking fear in those that are observers of such activity.

Who made such a declaration? How dare them do such a thing.

And what particular electronic or atomic instrumentation are you using to enable you to detect any level of 'faith'? None? My goodness. That is not a very scientific approach to use as a validation of your assertion.

Not only are you spiritually blind, but you must also be physically blind. What do you think I am doing on this forum? I am teaching others about my faith and trust in God.

Show me an idea that has power. I dare you to even try.

Gee, that sounds like you are talking about the doctrines of the scientific community in all of their tampering with human test rats in order for them to appease their gods of commerce and numerology.

Examples of what?

Because they are not exposed to as many toxins as the rest of the world in the foods that they consume.

That is entirely your choice. Preferably, I would rather see you worship God, but that don't seem to be happening ... at least not yet.

 

On the one hand you write "we may never know the exact truth about the life of Jesus due to many corruptions and down right perversion of the original (copies of) scriptures."

Then you write "I believe the truth is still intact"

Which is it?

Do you find the works of other authors as valid as the Holy Bible when you say "I read a bit about the idea that Christ was a Buddhist. Not enough evidence."?

 

Sorry Rev, I would have replied to your post earlier, but I only just spotted it.

A discussion about if, how and when the scriptures may have been 'corrupted' (what a weird choice of words) doesn't really play into this discussion and I think to go into that would take us much too far off topic, so I'll just leave it.

In this post I've already given some scriptural links about why I think that faith alone might not save us Christians unless we also follow His teachings and complete it with love: http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/212915-real-cancer-11.html#post4612456


As for the Aztecs you've mentioned: while there is proof that they did indeed bring human sacrifice today's historians agree that the extend of these horrible rites was probably vastly exaggerated by Spanish missionaries who had an interest to cast a (*)(*)(*)(*)ing light on these heathens' religious practices.
And as Christians whose religion was responsible for the torturing and brutal killing of an estimated 40.000 to 60.000 'witches' in medieval Europe and many other bloody crimes we probably shouldn't be too eager to throw the first stone at another culture's religious rituals.

It is beyond me how you can seriously think that killing, enslaving, torturing, dehumanizing and evangelizing them by brutal force was an adequate Christian way to stop the Aztecs from bringing human sacrifices?
While in 2011 you still seem to defend the positions of Sepúlveda concerning the treatment of the indigenous population of South America even the Catholic Church has long moved on.
In 2000 Pope John Paul II asked forgiveness for sins committed by Christians over the last two millennia:

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/ns_lit_doc_20000312_prayer-day-pardon_en.html

I was pleased to hear this apology and those of various other Churches for similar wrongdoings: To acknowledge past sins is the first step to avoid future ones. And if we want to give testimony of Christ we'd better try to amend our ways rather than continuously acting worse than the most self-righteous and bigoted of pharisees.

 

Where in scripture is the relationship between faith and illness described as you have described it.

The fantasy is your belief that you carry messages directly from God

Blasphamy is what I heard. You have gone much further than teaching others. Delusions of grandeur have come upon you.

Claiming to deliver messages about scripture directly from God is heresy.

The idea that if bad things happen it is because God is displeased.

This idea has caused folks to burn many, sacrifice children, torture people over centuries, kill jews.

You should lose this idea and not continue the blasphamy of teaching it to others.

 

And to think that you are supposed to know a lot about the Bible. Read John 11. The whole chapter is about faith, sickness, death, and restored health and vitality..

Now you openly declare that I have a 'fantasy'. Since that is YOUR CLAIM, prove it. Prove that I do not carry messages directly from God.

Once again, Prove you claim. Prove that I have delusions of any magnitude. Prove that I have committed an act of Blasphemy. Right now, you are batting a 1000 at making claims that you cannot prove.

Once again, those are your claims that you have directed toward me. Again, since those are your claims, prove those claims or disprove your own claims.

Again, those are your words.

Again, those are your ideas.

I would love to lose all those ideas that you keep throwing into the discussion, but you cannot post a message without throwing them in the arena again, and again, and again. Talk about hypocritical.... Suggest that someone "lose" something and then you keep on attempting to prevent that someone from losing that same thing that you suggested that they lose. You really do need to make up your mind.

 

1) you are not Jesus
2) That story in John is way too similar to the resurrection of Osirus stories and so is likely a later interpolation but even so,
3) It tells a story about one persons faith .. there is no general message to all people that if they have faith they will not get sick.

LOL Prove the sky is not blue first.

Your claim to carry messages directly from God is enough to satisfy the charge of Blasphamy.

You claim to carry messages directly for God but in the next sentence deny the that you make any claims to speak for God.

This confusion is the work of unclean spirits trying to bring about abominations of the old days, child sacrifice, torturing and burning people who disagree with you (after all your claims are from God so who can oppose them)

Supporting ideas that have caused so much evil in the past is unfortunate. This blindness and denial of reality is further proof that these spirits are not on the level.

 

Did I say that I was? No? Wow! What an astute observation on your part.

Another rationalization so that you can deal with it?

Faith, in that story is what healed. That is where you seem to get things all mixed up. No spiritual reckoning and subsequently no spiritual comprehension of what the spiritual gifts are all about. Goodness, you do need to study more and study with an open mind, and quit all of that rationalizing.

There you go on that strawman again. Do you really like riding atop all that straw?

YOUR CLAIM. I don't claim anything. I merely speak truth.

YOUR CLAIM that says that I claim. I make no claims, I merely speak the truth.

Then you do believe in God and unclean spirits. That means that you are not an atheist or even an Agnostic. To state such affirmative assertions, must mean that you have positive evidence on the existence of such entities.

Those 'ideas' of the past are in fact 'unfortunate' .... for you and your ilk. I have no blindness. In fact, my driver license says that I have good eye sight. Denial of 'reality'.... strange... no-one on your side of the fence has been able to prove the existence of this creature you call 'reality'. I refer to that so-called 'reality' as being nothing more than the temporal world. True... those spirits are not on the same level. They all belong to an hierarchy of varying magnitudes of strength, purpose, majesty. You got at least one part right.

 

You claim to be Gods messenger .. That was Jesus ..

What a Joke .. you pull out the strawman and then when I show that to you you accuse me of what you are guilty of doing.

This is called "Transferrence"

You can repeat yourself over and over again .. this does not change the fact that you do much more than claim to speak the truth ..

You claim to carry messages from God.

Never have I said I did not believe in God. This is another example of your delusion.

Your claim to carry messages directly from God is enough to satisfy the charge of Blasphamy.

You claim to carry messages directly for God but in the next sentence deny the that you make any claims to speak for God.

This confusion is the work of unclean spirits trying to bring about abominations of the old days, child sacrifice, torturing and burning people who disagree with you (after all your claims are from God so who can oppose them)

Supporting ideas that have caused so much evil in the past is unfortunate. This blindness and denial of reality is further proof that these spirits are not on the level

 

No! You make the claim that I claim to be Gods messenger .. I merely speak the truth.

Yes! You are a joke.

Yes! That is what you are doing.

I don't make claims. I merely speak the truth. It seems to be you that is dependent upon 'claims'.

Are you a broken record, or is that the extent of your vocabulary?

Your behavior betrays that assertion.

Broken record. It is your claim, not mine.

Broken record. It is your claim, not mine.

Yes! The confusion that you suffer from is the work of unclean spirits.

Then you should stop supporting such ideas. Open your eyes and you would not appear to be so blind.

 

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation." (Mark 16:15)

"Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matthew 28:19)


All Christians are God's messenger so sayeth Jesus.

 

You claim to have conversations with the holy spirit and that is how you know the truth of certain scriptures.

 

1) Just to clarify ..There was in the name of "Father Son and Holy Ghost" in the original baptism formula. Early Christians were baptized in the name of Jesus. It was not until the 2cnd Century that the Church changed the formula.

2) Preaching the Gospel is preaching the Gospel. The Gospel can be interpreted many ways and it is by many people.

Going out and claiming,

"I know the truth or true meaning of the Gospel because of my daily conversations with the Holy Spirit"

Is a completely different thing. It is a claim to speak for God.

Preaching the Gospel is one thing. Claiming to be able to interprete the true meaning of the Gospel because of a relationship with the Holy Ghost is speaking for God.... Period.