The real cancer

The real tragedy of American thought is that our major causes of debilitating illnesses, injuries and death are the result of things like cancer, heart problems, traffic accidents, overdoses, mental illness, murder and the like. It's none of them.

The major source of problems is the cancer of unbelief. Not drinking the living water, not believing in Jesus and instead putting your trust in man.

Think what you like, but if you look around at all the evil and negativity in the world and wonder why, you'll find we are a peoples that seek wisdom, understanding and a purpose for life. Yet most of us are looking in the wrong places, seeking answers from a physical world and overlook the most obvious answer to man's problem. We are more than just body and mind. We have a soul, a spirit about us that most ignore and can't comprehend so we go about our merry way living a life that is less than it could be.

I say, look up. No, not at the sky or the tall buildings, but at He who created the world. Sure, pooh pooh it as all rubbish and tall tales, but human thought becomes stifled when boxing yourself in by eliminating the possibility that we didn't just explode into a Universe and evolve from some unknown amoeba or whatever and developed into what we know and see today. Now for me, that would take alot more faith than the Faith we have as Christians.

So just write me off and what I believe, laugh, mock, make corny jokes. I don't really care all that much about your sad existence, but I do care about you as individuals for I know what our future holds and I wish none to experience anything other than a blessed and joyful life and hereafter.

My post here will be soon forgotten but know that in the recesses of your mind a seed has been planted and with proper nourishment (Holy Bible) and belief in Jesus you too can experience a life of joy and happiness in all circumstances.

 

AMEN BFOJ... Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.. (spiritual ammunition that is).

 

Ok, if Jesus loves us, then why do innocent people die of "debilitating illnesses, injuries and death are the result of things like cancer, heart problems, traffic accidents, overdoses, mental illness, murder and the like"?

Ever hear of the "Problem of Evil"?

 

Ever stop to think that it is simply because they don't believe, or that they don't put their trust in the Lord, or (the one that some would most likely expect to hear) that it is because God ordained it to be that way as a means of testing the spirit of those witnessing the situation or reading about the situation?

What is the "Problem of Evil"?

 

Look it up.

 

OH! Look it up is your answer to the question "What is the "Problem of Evil"? " Then you are suggesting that the definition or explanation of the "Problem of Evil" is "look it up"? Interesting definition. What encyclopedia or dictionary can I find that in?

 

See, your inability to debate beyond obsessing over irrelevant little details is exactly why all your question warranted was "look it up". Anything more would have resulting your obsessing over grammar or possibly the words relation to astrology, or some other irrelevant red herring.

 

National religious belief correlates negatively with both national happiness and national quality of life. Sorry, if America has problems, it's not due to lack of belief.

I, for one, have not overlooked that possibility. I considered it, and discarded it due to insurmountable evidence against it. Human 'souls' are the product of their physical form. If spiritual dualism was correct, our thoughts and personalities would be detatched from our physical form. Lesion studies show very visibly that brain damage often causes irreversible personality change, meaning that spiritual dualism is not valid.

As far as verifiable evidence goes, no personality has ever survived the destruction of the brain, and no spirit has ever survived the destruction of the body.

I'm going to guess that's only because you don't understand it. For proof that you don't understand it, I cite the bolded.

That's very nice of you. And for the record, I'm not laughing at you, nor making jokes or mocking you.

I'm just posting because you are wrong on almost every conceivable level.

Of all the Billions of Christians that have ever existed, how many have had a "life of joy and happiness in all circumstances"?

 

Do you have a source of statistics validating your comments above?

Again; what is your source of data that leads you to the comment about "insurmountable evidence against it"?

Explain please.

Please explain what is 'spiritual dualism'?

How does brain damage correlate to 'spiritual dualism' or the absence of 'spiritual dualism' and again what is 'spiritual dualism'? What test equipment was used to detect either the presence or absence of 'spiritual dualism'?

Are you suggesting that there is test equipment that can detect the presence or absence of 'spirit' and which can determine whether or not the spirit continues on after destruction of the body? What type of equipment would that be?

Writings now become 'proof' of something (in particular 'understanding')? Are writings also proof of other things?

So you say. Where is your validation that proves he is "wrong on almost every conceivable level."

None. Even Jesus himself suffered and died and even cried out 'Father why have you forsaken me?' So what point are you attempting to make?

 

Nothing wrong with looking up and praising the Lord who - for all we know these days with our limited but God-given brain - exploded us into a universe and let us evolve from an unknown amoeba! How genius is that! Makes my mind spin and I praised the Lord myself for it tonight.

And while I'm all for humility and against human hybris I also thank the Lord for having given us scientists and for all the progress medical research has made. Let's pray one day he'll let us find cures for cancer, too. And while we're at it, let's pray that he may rid the world of all the trickster bogus faith healers who abuse His name to extract money from the neediest with false promises.

I don't write you off or mock your beliefs, indeed I probably share most of them. But maybe the Lord is even bigger than your post indicates you think He is.

 

And obviously bigger than what is expressed in word and deed by virtually every Christian today. The Bible expresses faith in God and Jesus in these words

"Mat 14:34 ¶ And when they were gone over, they came into the land of Gennesaret.

Mat 14:35 And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;

Mat 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole. "

Medicinal remedy found in a piece of material. Or was that medicinal remedy found within their faith in God?

 

I do! I knew someone would ask.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quality-of-life_2005.svg

http://worlddatabaseofhappiness.eur.nl/hap_nat/nat_fp.php?mode=6

EDIT: This link wont take you directly to the map. Click "Finding Reports", then "Map" next to level mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Religion_in_the_world.PNG

Even just eyeballing the data you can see a clear negative correlation.

I'll get to that.

Our thoughts, personalities, morality, and cognition are all things that people define as a "soul". These things obviously exist, but they are not spiritual. They are the product of brain function. Go read a neuroscience textbook. It will do you some good.

Spiritual Dualism is the concept that our physical self is different from our spiritual or mental self. In essence, we are not our body, our body is merely our shell.

I'm sure I dont need to spell this out for you. If our spirit is distinct from our physical form, damaging our physical form would not damage our spirit. This is distinctly not the case, though.

That's not even close to what I said, so don't act like it is. Nobody has ever presented legitimate evidence of a spirit continuing from a deceased body. Ever.

As far as equipment demonstrating that a 'soul' will not continue undisturbed after brain damage, then yes, it exists. It's a special form of equipment called "talking to the person with a railroad spike lodged in their brain".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

Or a stroke. Or dementia. Or really any kind of brain lesion.

Don't play dumb. Saying "just explode into a Universe and evolve from some unknown amoeba or whatever" is pretty clear evidence he doesn't understand the big bang, abiogenesis or evolution by natural selection.

See above, yo.

That the point he is attempting to make is incorrect.

You ask such pointless questions.

 

People like Peter Popoff aren't Jesus. Far from it. Should you - God beware - ever develop cancer I suggest you pray to the Lord to give you spiritual strength and go to a doctor to do whatever earthly medicine can do to help you.

 

The maps are an interesting study of economic relationships to happiness level, but I did not see any corresponding relationships to religious beliefs. Were there any available for such comparisons?

And you did. Now I am waiting on the answer to the above question.

Those are common conceptions outside the realm of religion.

Can you prove that they are not 'spiritual'? What is your preferred definition of spiritual?

I have completed a sufficient amount of study that enables me to understand the processes (electro-chemical processes acting upon the neural network). Thanks for the invitation however.

Strange. I have mentioned that to this forum on a previous occasion. "Know thyself". To gain such recognition, one has to do a lot of introspection. I do find it interesting that you do make that distinction between the physical and another aspect. I find it still more amazing that you also correlate 'spiritual' with 'mental self'. That would mean that a new born child has no 'spiritual' self because his/her mental capacities are not developed. How do you define "spirit".

Explain.

Then how can you assert "Lesion studies show very visibly that brain damage often causes irreversible personality change, meaning that spiritual dualism is not valid."? Do these 'Lesion studies' have the capability of showing a spirit within the brain of a person who has not suffered brain damage?

Now more interestingly, you have changed the parameters of what is being talked about. Your original statement was "As far as verifiable evidence goes, no personality has ever survived the destruction of the brain, and no spirit has ever survived the destruction of the body."

"destruction of the brain" would mean that the brain is no longer functioning. Obviously, if you are talking to someone with a railroad spike stuck in their brain, the brain has not been destroyed, but merely altered in such a significant way as to change his/her personality. He/she is still capable of speech, so the brain is not destroyed.

I have read the story of Phineas Gage.. so I am not really impressed with what it reveals, as it does not point to the absence of spirit or soul. It only reflects a personality change. Period.

Phineas Gage also did not suffer the destruction of the body. So, in essence, your evidence in that area has failed.

So, the previous questions I asked regarding what type of equipment was used have not been sufficiently answered.

Again, where is the empirical evidence to support such an assertion?

Don't be presumptuous by trying to make it appear that you KNOW what other people KNOW. For all you KNOW, he could have been displaying a note of sarcasm. He might even have a PHD in some related science that would enable him to thoroughly KNOW what is going on but just wants to test others by his approach.

Do you think you have proven your point? If you do, then where is the PROOF?

 

Third link, man.

Third link, man.

They sure are!

They are the products of physical activity in the brain. They are entirely natural phenomena. That isn't spiritual by any definition. The entire field of cognitive neuroscience agrees with me, and they carry with them a monumental weight of Empirical studies, including MEG scans, PET scans fMRI's and lesion studies.

Then stop playing dumb. If you have studied it well enough, you would be aware that physical damage to the brain can utterly ravage an individuals personality and mental function, if not cease it entirely.

What? I don't make any distinction between the physical self and the mental self. That's my entire point, that they are merely two sides of the same coin. The OP made that distinction, but the evidence suggests he is wrong.

No. I refuse to believe that anyone reading this is unable to understand that point.

They show very clearly that the "mental self" is merely the product of the physical self's activity.

Fair enough. I should have said "significant damage" rather than "destruction".

Yes. And what is our "soul" if not our personality, how we feel, our morality and how we think? All those things define "us", and they are all from physical roots.

Learn to read, please. Again, that's not what I said - stop acting like it is.

See previous comment.

Where is the Empirical evidence to suppost the suggestion that "Dementia, Strokes and Cerebral trauma causes irreversible personality changes"? Are you really asking that question? 20 seconds on google could enlighten you.

Then he would be doing a very good job of acting dumb. Who cares? That's not important. The difference between him pretending to be uneducated and him actually being uneducated amounts to literally nothing for the purposes of this discussion.

Alright.

Take your pick.

And now I'm done with this. Anyone reading this thread can understand my point by now, and I'm not dumbing it down any further for your benefit.

 

Now, can you explain the correlation, or are you just throwing data onto the screen to obfuscate some point previously mentioned?

Looks like we agree on that point.

I have already gone through a similar argument with someone else on the use of the SEM and the graphics produced by that multi-million dollar piece of equipment. The three primary sources you listed (MEG, PET and fMRI's) fall into that same category as the SEM and produces images of something, and that something is an output of the programming (software) that controls the operation of those pieces of equipment. no real marvel, and no real depiction of any soul, spirit, level of intelligence.... just images of electrochemical reactions in the brain. For you to assert that because of these images there is proof that 'they are entirely natural phenomena' is presumptuous on our part.

Ceasing in totality the action of the brain or even significantly altering the personality of a brain damaged person, is no proof of the absence or presence of a spirit or soul; or in the case of total cessation of brain activity, there is no proof that the spirit or soul has ceased to function. Where is that proof that is necessary to validate the claim that you have made?

Repeating the same jargon about evidence does not work when I have already addressed the problem with the so-called evidence. That 'evidence' does not even address the issue of 'spirit or soul'.

"I'm sure I dont need to spell this out for you. If our spirit is distinct from our physical form, damaging our physical form would not damage our spirit. This is distinctly not the case, though."

Perhaps I should have been more precise in forming my question. Try this variation: Explain how "this is distinctly not the case"? I also just noticed your insertion of a word making this a hypothetical scenario that you presented ... your use of the word "if". That "if" also shows a degree of uncertainty on your part as to whether or not there is a distinction between "our spirit" and "our physical form". Hmmm.

How can you show a certainty on the above point, when in your previous writing you expressed an uncertainty whether or not there is a distinction between spirit and physical form?

Change of terminology between those two words is not all that you need to look at.

You seem to forget that this is a religious segment of this PF, and in that probable forgetful moment, you did not consider this:

"Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

The word "breath" above is also defined as 'spirit'.

I know how to read and I do comprehend what I read. Therefore, I will repeat my last statement on the above subject: "So, the previous questions I asked regarding what type of equipment was used have not been sufficiently answered."

That same amount of time on Google would also allow you to substantiate what you claim prior to posting something that causes someone to ask you for the information that you are leaning on.

Then why do you keep on referring to people as being dumb or of a quality of education that is suggestively lower than your own?

I will take a look at it.

There you go again, attacking the intellectual capacity of others for no good reason.... just because you can. That type of behavior is not becoming to someone of the intellectual capacity which you desire others to see in you.

 

LOL, how many people need to visit a psychiatrist.

 

That is just plain evil.

 

I never said you were dumb. You seem pretty bright to me, to be honest. I just said you were playing dumb, and attempting to get me to dumb down my point. I don't know why you are doing that, but I don't plan to follow along. Sincere apologies for any misunderstanding.

 

Having ideologies that compell people to reject other people by such narrow criteria as not sharing the same imaginations just pull those people back into themselves, at best whining about the tragedies and cancers that other people impose on them by not sharing their imaginations, and at worst .. well, turning the whining into sad action.

That's the tragedy of places where exclusivist ideologies are strong.

 

By inferring a need to 'dumb down' your comments for my benefit is saying that you believe me to be dumb in comparison to your so-called intellect. Learn what you are saying before you say it. An old, old proverb from long ago reads something like this: "stop and think before you speak, if you can wait that long."

 

Which specific part?

 

Not necessarily. I presumed you wanted me to dumb it down again and again until I made a mistake, which is why I didn't do it. You are smart enough to get my point as is.

 

Well thanks for the compliment. On the other hand, if your compliment were sincere, then there would have been no need for the 'dumb down' comment that you previously made. Consistency in thought is a major task that everyone should undertake. Presumptions could be a consistent thought pattern for you, but I have not validated that possibility.

 

To entertain the thought that people get hit by debilitating illnesses, injuries and death because they happen not to share a certain imagination.