You left out the fact that they may both be complete and total nonsense. Neither may contain any valid fact at all.
The massive amounts of Christian Apologetic Literature are huge beyond belief. The fact that such APOLOGIES are needed shows the idiocies, confusion, nonsense and plain stupidity that exists in the bible. There is no logical, coherent tale of Jesus, there are many confused and conflicting tales with often no commonality. Tens of Thousands of Christians have spent lifetimes trying to validate the inconsistencies and nonsense and have succeeded it creating more confusion and nonsense, oh and several thousand different Christian Cults. There is NO valid, real evidence that Jesus ever existed and no amount of Christian Apology will ever change that. ONLY evidence will change that and despite 2000 years of search, none has been found.
Since no god or gods exist, there can be no such thing as "gods healing power". There is not one iota of evidence to support the existence of any god, so there can be no evidence that any god has ever healed anyone or anything.
You left out an important part of your "The massive amounts of CAL are huge beyond belief" of the unbeliever. Apparently you are unaware of the non-biblical sources that offer authentication of Jesus. Not just any Jesus, but He who was/is divine and in fact God incarnate. Please do not interject your ignorance of the matter.
Well, you can of course substitute the word 'mountain' for all kinds of things. World peace is always high up on my list. However, the stories about Jesus healing people are not to be mistaken with his teachings. For people living 2000 years ago these stories demonstrated that He taught with divine authority. I won't even go down the path that they may never have happened, but just point you to the biblical hint that Jesus Himself may not have wanted these healing-stories to be the first and furthermost thing to be remembered about him. Have a look at Mt 8:4a for instance: See that you don't tell anyone . Not exactly what faith-healers like Benny Hinn would say, is it? I don't want to to scatter your faith quite the opposite: I think it is important for us to have faith that God's love is with us in health and in sickness. IMHO people who put their faith on faith-healing build it on sand. It's a fact that Christians have problems, get ill and die just like anybody else. And it would be disgusting cynicism to claim that all these Christians just don't have enough faith. There are next to no miraculous healings whatever Benny Hinn and other people who make loads of money with their mumbojumbo may want to make you believe. If you want to know how his lot works you may want to follow the work of these guys: http://www.trinityfi.org/about_us.html or just watch this little programme. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYjgeayfYPI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYjgeayfYPI[/ame] All in all I suggest you don't give a single penny to any of these self proclaimed faith-healers who suck on the hopes of the desperate. If we want to act according to the teachings of Christ we should instead donate to poor people that are truly in need of help and have trust that while we may carry our bodily cross the Lord will heal our souls.
Christians and Christian missions contribute more to the poor than all the Government and other faiths give combined. Check the facts for we do not need one such as you to tell us how to be a good steward of God's money and resources.
His teachings clearly indicate that in the meantime he still wants us to work towards this aim. We are to let the mustard seed He planted grow. Honestly, I don't know whether these stories actually happened or whether these healings were miraculous (i.e. Outside of God's given natural laws) or not, nor does the answer to that question have any effect on my faith, which is indeed based on the Holy Bible which I take to be the word of God but not a word of God that's to be taken literally and - sorry to say it - almost idolized in the ways some fundamentalists tend to do. Personally I find that a historical-critical exegesis is a better method to make us understand which messages the Bible holds for us today, whereas a literal understanding is unsustainable unless one is willing to go to ridiculous lengths to 'explain' the ways in which the bible contradicts itself and historically established facts. Of course a good measure of the Holy Spirit when looking for guidance while wading through these vast ancient scriptures helps as well (2 Corinthians 3:3-6) I once had a slipped disc that slipped back before surgery was scheduled. I'm sure I must have prayed for the darned thing to slip back and I certainly praised the Lord when it did. Yet I think chances to get this event registered as a miraculous healing at the Vatican are slim. It's totally explainable. As for doing greater things: what makes you think Jesus spoke of miraculous healings rather than other- and maybe from His point of view greater - acts of love and self-sacrifice (I'm including the latter because he spoke about that at last supper) It's nice that concerning the abundance of con artists we've already reached a minimum consensus here. As for the rest: I'm pretty certain you'll find a natural explanation for all these testimonies. But as long as these faith-healers don't abuse the Lord's name to exploit people's hopes nor keep people from seeing a regular doctor that's fine with me. While I doubt that God cares to operate here beyond the natural laws he attributed to this world I don't doubt that He could if He wanted to. There's no need to insult me as „one such as you“ (who would "you" be anyway?), because nowhere in my post did I doubt that Christians and Christian missions contribute to the poor. Whether it's a 'fact' that they give more than governments or other faiths combined or just a bold claim I don't know, nor do I care to check up on it. Being a German Protestant one of my favourite charities is "Brot für die Welt" (http://www.brot-fuer-die-welt.de/english/index.php), but I feel no need to look down on others including non-Christian ones. Every little helps.
Perhaps in your dry sense of humor, but I think between the child-birth policies of China and the abortion factory in America has contributed more toward that effort.
Why bring up such people as Benny Hinn? Do you hold a fascination toward Mr Hinn? Does Mr Hinn run parallel to Jesus in your mind? Well of course it is important. It also comes nowhere near a point that would "scatter my faith". My faith is not in question. Then you deny the following passage of scripture: "Jhn 14:12 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jhn 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it]." Is there any particular rationalization that you would like to use to refute what is reported to be the Words of Jesus? Is they any particular rationalization you would like to use to say that the words spoken/written in that scripture do not mean what they are saying? Clearly you have not studied the Bible well, as Paul points out in the story of the sons of Sceva, that there are some who would go about proclaiming that they are doing Gods work, and that those same people are recognized neither by the masses of this world nor by the spiritual entities that they encounter. Study more. Are you being intentionally neglectful of stating that God can and will also heal our physical bodies?
There is no real and valid evidence, secular or otherwise, of the existence of the biblical Jesus. There exists only second hand tales at best, supposition, guesswork and belief, NO evidence. There is evidence that Pontius Pilate existed, the corner stone to a gym in Judea which bears his name and a date. There is NOTHING of the kind for the support of the biblical Jesus, kinda strange that after 2000 years of search, there is evidence a roman existed but none that Jesus did.
Your reasoning I suppose is that the Holy Bible is not valid as an Historic document? With writers that witnessed first hand the Christ, that the Book is fiction, that none of the events took place? Is this where you are coming from? No secular evidence? http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html Western dating is based on before and after Jesus? The apostles lived and died for a lie? Paul suffering for someone that did not exist? PP you are assured lived, but Jesus whom Christianity is based on is fabricated. Give me a break. Would you also conclude Mohammed, Ghandi and nearly every other religious leader supported the belief that Jesus existed? Your words fall short and not accepted by any legitimate authority on the history of Jesus. Even satan knows of Jesus. Oh, that's right you probably don't believe in satan either.
Yep.... even after a longer period of time there is still no evidence that Socrates was a real man (person). I agree 100%.... therefore, any teachings based on that alleged fellow Socrates,,, is just a promulgation of stories to add to the effect of that fairy tale guy called Socrates.
Talking snakes, and speaking trees to death for not bearing fruit out of season, ROFLOLOL. How stupid does the bible have to get before people recognize it for the superstitious nonsense it is?
Pontius Pilate is mentioned in the bible and there is also real evidence he existed, a stone in Judea with his name and a date. Jesus is mentioned in the bible and there is NO real evidence to support his existence, Hmmmmmmm?
Actually I'm your sister in Christ, but apology accepted, brother. And please allow me to give you some advice (that admittedly I don't always heed myself): don't get too upset with the 'anti-christians' in this forum, but always defend your faith with the patience and love our Lord told us to have. It will render much bigger credibility to what you want to say. As a matter of fact I've already answered this question in another discussion the two of us had, but I'll gladly answer it again: I do indeed believe that Christ died for all of humanity, he even asked God to forgive those who crucified Him, for they do not know what they are doing (Luke 23:34) As a mere human I'd never claim to know God's judgement or the criteria He sets for it, but I trust that we are saved by the grace of God as shown in Christ. While being steadfast in my own faith and sure see Jesus as the way to salvation for myself I'm not chauvinistic about my religious beliefs, because I can't imagine that Jesus, who chose a Samaritan - somebody who was despised as heretic by pious Jews of His time as a role-model for true grace of charity, would appreciate such chauvinism. So all in all I'd think along the lines of these Christians here who describe themselves as inclusive and show respect for other faiths who just like us are on the search for the divine: http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/interfaith/interfaith.html
Well, fact is that while most scholars do not believe the gospels to be an accurate historic account on the life of Jesus only very few scholars doubt that the historic person Jesus ever existed. Even Richard Dawkins regards this theory as rather wild and improbable. You are of course free to cling to it anyway.
To me, this works only if you believe God is the spirit that resides within you. People will face problems out of their control despite their god or lack thereof. In those situations, the best bet is to turn inward and have coping mechanisms in place in order to deal.
It's pretty obvious from my post that I don't think Mr. Hinn and other cons run parallel to Jesus. I brought him up to warn you and others of fraudsters that are out to abuse desperate people's hopes for their own profit. BFOJ has already asked me that question, soo to avoid repeating the answer that I've already given I just link you to the post in which I gave it: http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/214126-healed-not-6.html#post4645320 It's always a good advice to study more and I'll certainly heed it. I hope you can forgive me for pointing out that I have already studied enough to know that Acts wasn't written by Paul. You may however want to compare that story to Mark 9:38-40 and you'll find out that it's not that easy to say for sure who's a false prophet and a crook and who isn't. Just to be safe I just won't trust any modern-day faith-healers at all. I regard them as anachronistic. It's an observable fact that God does not heal our physical bodies. They go back to ash and dust, in other words: sooner or later we die and they decompose. Which led Paul to point out What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever. (1 Corinthians 15:50) So we should probably worry less about the health and well-being of our fading bodies and more about the health and well-being of our eternal souls.
Actually, BFOJ asked you two questions that could possibly relate to the subject of Hinn, however, he did not address my questions. Here is what he said.: "Since Jesus is God, it wouldn't be any surprise to Him that receipients of a miracle would tell others at first opportunity. I think you misread the intent of His sayting "See that you don't tell anyone". Did you ever think of that? On the suggestion that these healings never happened, only one who does not accept the Holy Bible as the Word of God would even suggest such a thing. If that's the case with you, what is your faith placed upon?" Well of course everybody KNOWS that the 2/3 of the NT were not written by Paul. Of course everybody recognizes Paul as a false prophet, a fraud, and that none of the writings attributed to Paul were actually written by Paul. Were you there as a first hand witness of who wrote what? I also do not trust any of the TV Evangelists... including the Pope when he airs his christmas rituals. Are you denying the power of the Holy Spirit? Are you saying that God does not have that power to heal? Are you saying that God cares so little about the people that worship Him that He is indifferent to their physical needs? Are you saying that Jesus lied when he stated that the believers would do more and greater works than what He did? You gotta be kidding. Are you serious? Our bodies will turn back into dust? Wow. "1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. " Now it's your turn. Use all of your abilities and rationalize the scripture and make it mean something that it is not saying. I notice you failed to show the next few verses which tell the rest of the story that you conveniently left out. Why? Now your final and closing point I will not dispute. I find it disgusting that you would say that God does not heal our physical bodies, when Jesus made it very evident that God does heal our physical bodies. Do you KNOW more about what God will and will not do, than what Jesus KNOWS?
Obviously you didn't read my answer to BFOJ's questions. If you're interested look them up. *sigh* I referred to the fact that the book of Acts, which contains the story of the sons of Sceva, is commonly attributed to Luke and while Paul is being mentioned in it nowhere in this story is Paul said to point out anything. Now we may start a discussion whether the Luke, who the gospel and Acts are attributed to, is indeed the same Luke who is said to have accompanied Paul, but that would lead us rather far off topic. Anyway: it was a snappy remark that rather than holding out the other cheek I made in response to your snappy remarks. To avoid further flamebaiting I'd like to apologize for rubbing in the slight mistake you made. I didn't say God does not have the power to heal our physical bodies, I said He probably doesn't do it, at least He doesn't care to do it in ways that are out of His given natural laws and could thus be described as miraculous. Doesn't mean He's indifferent: as I've said He's with us in our suffering and gives us strength in weakness. Because they are of no importance to our discussion. Paul preached to Christians who - just like him - expected to live to see the return of Christ and were worried about those friends and relatives who already died before then. So you may believe in the rapture but it doesn't change what Paul thought about the importance of our physical body in relation to our souls. I don't find it disgusting at all. I think I've mentioned before that I've worked for a hospice for a little while and thus I'm pretty familiar with the facts of illness and death. While it's pretty normal for humans to pray and 'bargain' with God when faced with a terrible and possibly lethal illness, I've rarely seen such bargaining leading to the illness going away. But I have seen and experienced myself the enormous strength our faith can give us in times of pain, despair and the near end of our physical life. There is great dignity in finally accepting God's will that the days of one's earthly life are coming to an end. And there's peace to be found in putting our trust in God for our eternal salvation. And yes, it may be bold: but I'm pretty sure that God hasn't designed my physical body to live forever and that it is His will that I too shall die one day.
Yes, we must not overlook man and rogue governments inhumanity toward those he deems unworthy to live and not suffer.
