'True lies of new Atheism'.

Big fail on that one. Even theists admit there is no proof of the existence, only that you need proof just faith.

 

Except for that large part of the world population that declare that they believe in the Bible. Duh....

And your point? "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

According to your preferred version of logic. Faith provides believers with a 'reason' to continue believing in the Bible. You oughta try it sometime.

 

Google search "evidence for the existence of god" Advanced search; About 4,130,000 results

Most religious people are interested in evidence etc. for the existence of God. However the difference between a religious scholar and a atheist scholar is that in the absence of evidence faith is enough. For a spiritual person faith is one of many parts of their paradigm of reality ie of how the universe is. However, not every religious person has a high degree of faith, some use more philosophy, science, logic, as evidence to support their beliefs. Others use the mentioned evidences along with life experience, revelation etc.

When it comes to evidence I like the philosophical evidences, such as the implications of the KCA. Each time I have debated this in this forum and others, the challengers fall by the wayside, and just as in its history the KCA it has never been defeated. Science has its areas and subjects, claims of existence that have no empirical proof yet they still cling to their beloved theory. Until theory is fact non believers should learn to accept both metaphysics and Logical positivism as ‘definers’ of reality. I doubt that will happen, the science establishment based on logical positivism is old and entrenched. Its institutions reek of double standards and of hypocritical actions if anyone dares buck the establishment. By that I mean they embrace the unverifiable i.e. string theory but reject anything that hints of God that isn’t verifiable. So the best the secular scientific community can hope for is to continue on in the ignorance that Logical positivism has wrought.

"Science without Religion Is Lame, Religion without Science Is Blind"
Albert Einstein

reva

 

I am a professional theist, an ordained minister and with enough schooling to teach in any state in the union (and have the paper hanging to prove it), however before I converted from atheism to theism I demanded evidence. I found it when I actually looked for it with an open mind.

reva

 

This is not about absence of evidence .. in many cases it is because of the evidence.

The flood ended somewhere between 2100-2400BC according to Biblical geneologies from the time of the exodus.

If the Ark landed in 2200 BC there were 4 men and their wives on the planet.

Cultural history in China, Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece, Africa, South America and numerous other places should stop.

It doesnt.

There is no date from 2100-2400 where cultural history stops.

This means that in order for Flood story be true God must have altered cultural history in a way that actually contradicts the Bible.

God is then playing a joke on humanity.

 

Then why present issues relating to evidence that is seemingly not present?

"If there was such a flood such as the Bible states then there should be an explanation for:

1) how the animals got back and how they survived with no food
2) Why we have continuous writing and history of many cultures thoughout the period of 2100-2400BC .. when the flood was supposed to have happened.
3) Why there is no disconnect of racial lines during this period
4) Why there is no record in ice cores or any other Geologic method
5) Why Noah is not mentioned after Genesis even though he lives into Abrahams time
6) Why none of the other cultures never mention that the Grandfathers (Noah and sons) of all humanity are still living and yet they worship their own leaders, (such as Sargon) as Gods. "

 

I do not buy your absence of evidence claim either .. but to simplify the issue we can stick to things there "is" evidence for.

Nice dodge but the question below still remains.

 

Nice try,,,, but there is no question below (within your quoted text above). Nice attempt at trying to escape my previous claim.

 

Population bottleneck

Obviously if there were only 2 of each animal on this Earth on Noah’s boat, that would constitute 'evolutionary event in which a significant percentage of a population or species is killed or otherwise prevented from reproducing', as only the genes of the animals on the Ark would be passed on.

We should see a genetic bottleneck in every single animal on the Earth if the story of Noah’s was true...but we do not.

Seems simple to me...Noah and his ark is nothing but a fable, just like the rest of the book of genesis.

 

You were an atheist and found proof and you are not sharing?? Shame on you. Whip that stuff out, as a minister for God it is a moral imperative that you convince as many people as possible before you leave this world and enter the kingdom of heaven. What the hell are you waiting for?

 

There is no evidence for how Spectacled Bears made it from where the Ark landed to South America. All we know is they made it there somehow.

Since we can not prove a negative ... it is true that I can not claim that these bears did not develop the airplane and fly there.

What we do have evidence for is that cultural history does not stop at the time of the flood.

The above evidence disproves the Biblical story of the flood so I understand why you would not want to address the issue.

 

Yes .. here here .. lets here the proof.

I would like to hear your explanation for why God has tampered with cultural history to make it look like the flood did not happen ..

and how the Spectacled Bear made it back to South America and survived with no food after the Ark landed !

 

There is no issue to address. You have your beliefs and I have mine. I don't like to get into the act of attempting to discredit what a person has written as a declarative statement, unless that statement defies all sense of 'reason'... and as we already know, reason includes 'normal thinking'... so that really leaves me with little wiggle room to be casting stones at other people. Even in my extreme use of the dictionary, I only do that to show that there is/are other possibilities as to how words can be used and abused.... or with grammar errors... like you not asking a question when you referenced a 'question below' that did not exist.

At the emphasized text: you have presented no evidence. You have only made declarations wherein you have not provided any form of evidence other than your declarations. Thus I can only conclude that you have no evidence other than your belief in what other people have told you, else you have fabricated a series of lies regarding the existence of evidence. I prefer to accept what you have said as one of your 'beliefs' rather than refer to you as a liar, or stupid, or insane, or delusional.

 

There is plenty of evidence for continuous culture (from 2100 to 2400) at numerous locations.

If you like I can provide this evidence but you would not accept it so there is little point.

What you could do is ask Jesus and the Holy Spirit about why these cultures continue uninterupted after the flood.

Let me know the answer to this please because it is a vexing question indeed.

Oh .. and ask how the Spectacled bear made it back to South America while you are at it ! This would be very cool to know

 

As I suggested before,,, those are questions that you need to take to the source of true revelation (God) as I don't care about that "spectacled bear" or about seeking a reason to ease YOUR vexation... I am not your mediator.

 

Darn .. I was really hoping for some answers.

I take it that you do not want to see evidence for continuous culture from 2100-2400.

 

There is an old adage that reads something like this "wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one gets filled first". I know you used the word 'hoping', but according to the Bible, if you were truly 'hoping' then you would be exercising faith, but because you don't appear to be one who places any credibility in the Bible and its teachings, I have to go with the use of 'wishing' as opposed to 'hoping'.

I could care less about that sort of evidence. The fact is all those cultures are here, present in the here and now. Which places emphasis on the other expression I have recently come to enjoy using: "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

 

I think if you read the Bible you would find the terms "seek and you will find"
"knock and the door will be opened to you"

Read further and you will find info about false prophets and false teachers and decieving spirits.

I find credibility in much of the Bible.

Your faith is weak. The slightest gust of wind challenges your foundation.

You have to ignore science, history (history of the Bible in particular), logic, philosphy and reason to maintain your faith.

This is not faith in God but blind adherence to a doctrine created by man; not one espoused by the words of Christ nor an attempt at true understanding of Christs words or the word of God.

I have presented evidence so the issue is not related to "absence of evidence".

There is plenty of evidence. This evidence is God is trying to tell you something but you are too blind and deaf to hear it.

The expression that you seem to live by is:

" When evidence contradicts my beliefs .. ignore it and pretend it does not exist"

God gave you a brain for a purpose no ?

What do you think that purpose is ?

 

#1 - stop pretending you have read the Bible. It does say that you can find God ... if you actually look for him. It does indeed warn of flase prophets, but that warning is not ever intended to be a warning that this is the effect of searching God - it is a warning about people like you. Arrogant people, bereft of knoweldge and intent, filled with anger who want nothing more to strip a man of his faith.

#2 - the most arrpgant pricks in the world have got to be atheist. What other bafoon could possibly make the claim that having faith in God means you have to abandon history, science, philosophy, and reason to to have faith in God?

I dare ANY atheist to actually back up this pompous bull crap with something like proof. I dare you. Step into this ring so I can expose you as the mean spirited charalatan you are but claim not to be - go ahead, step up - any of you!

Are we going to have that burden of proof converstaion again? Are we going to have to listen to you arrogantly insult people YET AGAIN, and then tell us you 'only' just disbelieve in no God. Malarky if ever I saw it.

Seriously, what is wrong with atheists that they think acting like this is acceptable? Logical?

Atheism = the religion for trolls and jerks.

You want evidence of God tampering - you explain Jesus, Mohammed, and the Prophets. You explain how the world changed from the Roman speldor in power into what we have now?

Oh well, there is culture so .... atheists, only they could think that evidence of people being alive means that there is no evidence God cares for them. Daft.

 

That is correct... just don't go knocking on the wrong door.... and subsequently, I have advised you to knock on the door of the one who can and will speak as a firsthand witness of those events you inquire about.

You are correct again, even as I have also advised on this forum to perform such spiritual tests and have been ridiculed by some of the Atheists on this forum for believing such things as you are professing above.

That is good, as there is far more credibility in the Bible than what you are seemingly willing to admit to.

On the contrary. It is your faith that is weak, and I justify that conclusion based on the fact that you have to resort to asking questions of one who you consider to have a 'weak' faith. That in itself speaks volumes with regard to the strength of your faith (and you do in fact possess the measure of faith). Wind, regardless of its strength or volume has no bearing on my 'faith'. I have been known to 'cut a storm' that was upon us.

Making demands now are you? I study elements of science every night; I also study elements of my favored philosophy every night; and the history of my people every night; as you already are aware of, I faithfully practice my favored form of logic each time that I am engaged in this forum; and 'reason' as you should already know is readily available to everyone that is not afflicted with some ailment that precludes 'normal thinking'.

When you speak of "this is not faith in God....", what is the specific "this" that you refer to?

No! You have not presented evidence. All you have presented is words that you have written on your keyboard which were subsequently transferred across the internet and made available for others to read. Where is that evidence that you speak about?

I hear the voice of God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but all those other voices that do not speak with His authority, I dismiss usually as being from someone or some other spirit that is rebellious to God.

That is not exactly correct. In order for that to be correct, there must first be a submission of 'EVIDENCE' and you have not done that as yet.

To use as a receptor and storage compartment for the things that are pertinent to my spiritual well being. Among those other trivial little things like maintaining the physical functions of the body that I inhabit, and for transportation and for interfacing with other vessels such as your personification exhibited under the title of "Giftedone" and the other personifications that experienced on this forum.

 

You have misplaced your trust in a book written by men that has no connection with any god. It has been misinterpreted in 1000 different ways be a million different people.

If you want to live your life based on a work of fiction, be my guest. Just leave me out of it.

I find it interesting that you are so willing to believe anything that someone claims to be a miracle while you would doubt a piece of paper if I dangled it in front of your face, just because I was holding it.

You didn't single out a piece of evidence because there isn't any that would stand up to the smallest amount of scrutiny.

Just because you worship something doesn't make it is a god.

Did you imagine a flying spaghetti monster and then disbelieve in it before you ever heard of it? Seems silly doesn't it? Using your logic, you have no more reason to believe in one god over another. If faith is evidence for existence, then why don't you believe in every single god?

A false reason is a reason, but that doesn't make it right. Once again, Just because you worship something doesn't make it is a god.

As though that is relevant in any way. I'll play your silly game.

Google search "evidence god doesn't exist"
About 54,600,000 results (0.20 seconds)

I win?

No one has ever used science to successfully support a religious belief.

Science can't support religious beliefs, as they are based on the supernatural.

lol @ KCA. That is the biggest piece of trash argument I have ever seen. You'd do more convincing with a stick and a rock.

 

By strict and complete use of definitions you are correct. Then when you also consider the degree of devotion that is applied to that thing that is worshiped, that thing can be viewed as a god. Such as a persons devotion to the hoarding of money... a person can be determined to have a godly worship for money if that person allows money to control his/her life.

Nope! Had to hear about it before I could determine to dismiss it.

If you say so.

Wrong again. I have an eternal 'reason' to believe in the God that I believe in. How about you and the one that you believe in?

"reason" is 'reason'... it is all 'normal thinking' and if you are now saying that 'normal thinking' is not 'right', then there might just be something wrong with your perception of things.

Because I do worship God, it makes my worship of God valid as God being God. Regardless of how you view my worship or how you view my God. But just out of curiosity,,, how do you view my God?

 

If you really had daily contact with firsthand witnesses (Jesus and the Holy Spirit) then you would be able to answer the simple question which I have posed to you numerous times over the last week or two.

Namely: How the Spectacled Bear got back to South America after the Ark landed.

Your failure to get an answer out of your spirit guides shows that they may not be what you think.

I would be giving your spirit guides the test above to see if they are really who they claim to be.

The credibilty of the story of Noah's Ark is questionable indeed.

Your spirit guides should however to be able to clear the issue up if they are credible.

Nonsense .... my faith in God does not require literal interpretation of the Bible.

Knock out any one of your weak pillars and your whole structure falls. This is why you have to twist, contort and ignore logic, philosopy, science, history, and archaeology in order to maintain your faith.

Good .. I would recommend however that you study views that are directly opposed to yours. This is the basis of all philosophical thought.

Adhering to the doctrine of literalism created by man.

You read history every night .. May I suggest you study ancient history. Learn what is known about the cultures that existed 2100-2400.

This should convince you that the flood story is impossible.

.

Great .. then ask Jesus about the Spectacled Bear.

How about starting with Chinese history from 2800BC on down

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Chinese_history

Please locate time where the flood would be (2100-2400BC) and explain why Chinese culture is not interrupted.

 

How many times do I have to tell you that I am not your mediator. I cannot mediate your concerns between you and the Lord. You are responsible for your own activities... Here: maybe this will help you understand:
Pete Seeger/Arlo Guthrie - You gotta walk that lonesome valley - YouTube

 

Prove it.

Prove to me that people can read the good book, establish Seminaries to ensure it is understood correctly, and have general consensus on its priciples and somehow ALL be wrong.

And then tell us why your method, which has zero consensus beyond not believing in God, is better?

Having trust in literally nothing is better? Right.

No body is dragging you down here.

Once again, prove it.

Being derisive toward people has nothing to do with miracles.

We have Jesus.

You have what to definitively conclude that it is wrong? That his message was faked?

LEss than nothing. All you have is mean spirited speculation.

That tells me you are just angry at God. I suggest you deal with it.

Just because you don;t want him to be there doesn;t mean he isn't.

Unfortunately, that is called the guilt by association fallacy. And being a rather good cook, I know a thing or two about spaghetti. What is silly is advocating the 'sameness' of something who ingredients are known, whose cooking techniques are refined and well understood, and easily testable and verifable as neither magical and alive, and comparing it to God as if it is a foregone conclusion.

Its called expressing an opinion like a jack ass. We already know you don;t believe in God, really, you don;t have to be a jerk about it. The more disparaging your comparisons, the more they simply express the emotional, not factual, state of your conlcusions.

See above. Please apply your logic to your position.

Nope, just means that loads of atheists spend a lot of time not examining anything. Because the arguements they contain? They are never advocated here.

That is because the evidence is inconclusive scientifically.

No one has ever used science to DISPROVE it either - yet you are convinced anyway - even claiming the mantel of science.

OK, step up. Scientifically prove there is no God. Go.

Well, sticks and rocks are better than silly accusations alone.