Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Kris P. Bacon, Jul 29, 2022.
wall street and the trucker strike comes to mind
Dude - I said WWI and The Civil War was not started by atheists, and you counter with a thread about the Holocaust .... you
need to take a history lesson.
the czars were trying to implement democratic reform but not fast enough, coupled with the disaster of ww1 and the czar attempting to shoot his own hunger citizens it drove many to the otherside...the nazi party lost votes in 1928 (a few percent total) it was the recession that drove citizens to Hitlers promises of jobs and even every women a husband
the thule society was popular as was mysticism in gerneral at that time, hitler was an altar boy and imitated much of the catholic churchs pagentry into nazism
Whatever your point might have been, you need to figure out how to reconcile your point with the wars in Europe and UK over at least 500 years, where Christians clearly could not get along with Christians, let alone anyone else.
And, if religion actually IS a path to peace, how did Christians so seriously miss that idea in Ireland - even today!
No, it the lack of one... Which I agree can open the door to...
Many do have a strong need to be groupish, to believe in some higher calling, etc. I believe the cult of woke may have risen partly because traditional religion lost sway.
We need to be vigilant against religious thought even when it hides out as secular.
Not bad things to aim for. Not bad at all.
That is usually because the religion is a totalitarian regime itself. To form a totalitarian regime you have to get rid of all others.
I see little difference there. Claiming to speak for God or be guided by God explicitly is actually worse, and that's what theocratic regimes do.
How do we make sane policy if the process involves different religions making absolute demands coming directly from their gods?
It isn't much of a choice if you are bribed and threatened as that religion does, both by the doctrines and often historically by the believers.
And it doesn't take much to do better ethically than the Ten Commandments, which are more about obedience to power than they are about morality. I remember the first time I read them. I was truly shocked how little they cover morality and how much they call for obedience.
Imagine if the first commandment was "Be Kind" or "Don't rape" or "Don't enslave anybody" or even "wash your hands" instead of "Thou shalt have no Gods before me".
This I agree with. Banning free speech and attempting to ban freethought, even if that be to have a religion, is a huge red flag.
But where in the west is religion being banned? Not giving your religion special treatment and not forcing others to abide by its dictates isn't banning it. You are free to pray to whoever or whatever you want so long as you don't try to push it on me or make me do as it says.
Secularism is not the banning of religion. In fact in a world with multiple religions you need secularism to have freedom of religion. You can't have freedom of religion without freedom from then other guy 's religion.
The name you are looking for is Mao. Hitler wasn't an atheist.
If the Ten Commandments had anything to do with morality, why have they so majorly failed Christians as to allow wars between Christians? Even today, how do they offer NOTHING for Ireland, where the people are all Christian?
And dangerous. It leads people to think it couldn't happen here, or that their religion etc would stop it. It wouldn't. If it comes to America it is likely to come carrying a bible and wrapped in the American flag.
Trump was NOT a Hitler. But he could have been. He really could have killed somebody in the middle of Time's Square and he had supporters who would still have cheered him on.
~ What is your point ... ?
~ I think you know better .
Because it allows free choice and actions. We make the world what it is and when we discard religion and embrace atheism, the results aren't often pleasent.
Hopefully, everyone in the world will agree with you and there will be no problems and you can have your utopia. Don't bet on it though.
Do the Ten Commandments say not to go to war? It says not to murder. Murder is culpable homocide, meaning killing somebody without state permission, meaning without the authority telling you to. Elsewhere in the Bible, God seems to have no issue with wars, even demanding some slaughters by his chosen people (a pretty messed up concept in itself if you think about that) against others.
Apparently not, we're still here. Agnostics and atheists pulled apart the bull crap in many countries. The results were not good.
How does religion prevent the same things you fear from happening anyway? Many horrid things have happened whilst Christianity was not only present but much stronger. Slavery comes to mind. Even if you argue slavery isn't sanctioned by the Bible (which is debatable), the slavers were in a culture with Bibles everywhere, and they claimed to read it or listen to those who did. The presence of Christianity didn't prevent it. Same goes for many other horrible things done in societies filled with religion (Christianity and others).
I'm not willing to get into philosophical debates that go on forever. The op is about what banning religion and promoting atheism has done to many countries that went down that road.
1. Who is banning religion in the west? You have yet to answer that. Is this hyperbole, or do you actually think that's happening today? Secularism is not banning religion. Secularism enables freedom of religion. You need freedom from the other guy's religion to have freedom of religion for yourself.
2. Who is promoting atheism? Are there atheist missionaries who seek to convert people to atheism? To what end? And how many? Are they as prevalent as Christian missionaries?
2a. If there are such atheist missionaries, pushing religious people to become atheists, I agree that's a bad idea. Not everyone is equipped to handle free thought. Some need to be told what to believe, and if they leave established religions, as you say, they will create new ones, which may be as or more dangerous as the old ones.
3. You don't want to look at the problems with the established religions? Doesn't that undercut your argument about the dangers of the new thing replacing them (atheism or whatever else)? These things that replace them may be better than the religion that came before (or could be worse - we don't know).
4. Yes, you can point to atheist regimes that have done horrible things and that had horrible ideologies. Mao comes immediately to mind. But are you going to pretend that the same isn't true of Christian regimes and other religious regimes?
5. Does Islamic Theocracy appeal to you more than secular society? Does Christian Theocracy? Theocracy is the alternative to secularism. Secularism doesn't mean banning religion, it means not enacting religious doctrine as law or giving special treatment to people of any one religion.
just countering the other poster's point with facts
It’s not an outright ban in the west. But as we move towards secularism and a plurality of religions, it will become diluted as it is beginning to do and our obsession with materialism and individual rights will become the guiding principle.
Removing traditional values also removes religion which is one of the pillars of our society.
Religions do have a problem when they are interpreted by people. The prosperity gospel is an example of corruption.
No Christian country slaughtered people on the scale of the atheists who ran the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century.
Extremist theocracy shouldn’t be included. What I’m talking about is what happens in societies that turn away from religion and man replaces God. You know what happens and don’t think it will be any different next time around.
What would you prefer? You have multiple different religions in the west. You're not going to be able to change that unless you force some very draconian measures for theocracy of one religion over all others. Otherwise, technology has brought the people of the world too close together to have one religion cultures continue much into the future.
Are all traditional values worth keeping? I can think of a few I'd rather be without (racism, slavery, treating women as property, etc). And those that are worth keeping, why can't they be kept without religion? The nordic countries are very low on religion these days but also very high on societal happiness and flourishing. They seem to be maintaining the traditional values that are worth keeping.
Religions are always interpreted by people. That's what religions are.
Only because of population numbers. And those "atheist regimes" didn't do it in the name of atheism, but I take your point that they did do it absent religion. But would religion have stopped it?
No, I don't think so, as we see with Hitler, who embraced Christianity and used it for his purpose and did very similar things to the others. "Got Mitt Uns" written on the nazi belt buckles wasn't there to remind them to keep their hands warm. It means "God With Us". He's claiming God on his side, as many had done before while engaging in evil acts.
So you're not talking about secularism, but just the tendency of people to want to worship something, and absent your religion you fear what else that may be? Does it matter to you if it is somebody else's God? Do you prefer Islam to Atheism? How about non-theist religions like Buddhism and Taoism, that don't have any Gods but have spirituality and traditional values.?
Good luck with your secular humanitarian utopia.
Who said anything about a secular humanitarian utopia? You quoted me but didn't address anything I wrote.
Separate names with a comma.