Why do the U.S. support Ukraine which has so many unresolved political murders?

So you are suggesting we trade the Ukraine to defend Taiwan? What is the difference?

 

The Cry Baby Loser has been pissy since Zelinskyy refused to contrive fake charges against Biden after Trump had withheld vital military assistance to pressure him.

One incentive for Putinbots is being rewarded with their very own nuclear weapons for maligning feisty Ukraine.

“It’s very simple. You have to join the union between Belarus and Russia,
and that’s it: there will be nuclear weapons for everyone!”
Lukashenko said in a comment aired Sunday night on Russian state TV.

[https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...us-and-russia-putin-ally-promises/ar-AA1bPKxX]


Jan. 6 suspect who fled U.S. granted refugee status by Belarus

​

 

@Natty Bumpo
""The Cry Baby Loser has been pissy since Zelinskyy refused to contrive fake charges against Biden after Trump had withheld vital military assistance to pressure him.""
Except as time has passed we are finding that the "fake charges against Biden".... that they are and never were fake....

 

Gosh, I miss him already.

 

By correctly noting, that like Ukraine, that Russia is a corrupt Oligarchy that has bribed the Bidens?

So you will NEVER support the introduction of US troops into Ukraine?

They have been lying to us about Ukraine, like they lied to us about spying on Americans, the justification for invading Iraq, Russia Collusion, and Hunter's Laptop. There was a time when we hadn't lost a single American in Vietnam, and then we did, by the tens of thousands.



Like we told you then, when they had Russia on their back foot was the time to engage in peace talks.

Sad Reality: The Ukraine War Is Now Going Russia's Way

Just as everyone with a brain expected, the 'Russian side has made tactical and operational improvements that are having an impact on the ground in Ukraine.'

Russia's Early Errors:

'Moscow allocated an invasion force that was too small for the task, dispersed across four axes of advance (ensuring that none would be strong enough to succeed on its own), and was not equipped with supplies to sustain a long war.'

'Russia has vastly more capacity to make war, both in terms of material and personnel, and therefore has the capacity to absorb enormous losses and still remain viable. Further, Russian history is replete with examples of starting out poorly in wars, suffering large casualties, and then recovering to turn the tide. Ukraine, on the other hand, has significantly fewer resources or troops and therefore has less room for error. '

What is the current economy of Ukraine producing? Next to nothing, the expectation is that the rest of the world will carry the costs of Ukraine's economy, and fuel their war effort. Zelensky cannot make peace, his Nazi Battalions, Azov, have already told him that if he negotiates with Russia, that he dies, and they will kill him. So, Zelensky will continue this bloody war for as long as someone else writes the checks.

This war is in Europe. How much of the costs are the various European nations carrying compared to the US? And don't forget that Obama/Biden/Nuland started this war by backing a coup that removed the elected government chosen by the People of Ukraine. That's how we ended up in Vietnam. That's how we lost Iran.

'A Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) operative was approached during the time of U.S. 4th of July festivities by South Vietnamese military officers who wanted U.S. support for a coup d’etat that might overthrow Diem'

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-...-dark-corner-evidence-diem-coup-november-1963

'Over the now 15 months of war, Ukraine has fought and lost four major urban battles against Russia, suffering progressively worse levels of casualties in each: Severodonetsk, Lysychansk, Soledar, and most recently Bakhmut.'

They simply are not on the road the victory.

'When Russia was faced with city battles – Kyiv, Kharkiv City, and Kherson City – they chose to abandon each while establishing more defensible defensive positions elsewhere. Ukraine, on the other hand, chose to fight for their major cities. The results are telling.'

'By withdrawing from Kyiv and Kharkiv in the first month of war and from Kherson City last fall, Russia was able to relocate its force into more defensible positions, preserving its personnel from the crucible of a grueling defensive fight in urban terrain. Ukraine, on the other hand, chose to contest major cities and has now lost staggering numbers of troops – but they also lost the city itself in the end. The decision of the Ukrainian general staff to defend Bakhmut until the end may have grave implications for the rest of the war.'

And beware the disinformation on this board. We still have pro-Ukrainian propagandists on this board claiming that Ukraine is winning in Bakhmut and Russia is fleeing, and if you dare to point out the reality that you are "a pro-Putin propagandists" or a "Putin Lover" and similar such nonsense.

If after an open and vigorous debate in Congress explaining why this war is in our National Interests, and why our plan is worth the costs and likely to succeed, followed by a recorded vote and a seperate appropriation, I'm fine with whatever course is decided, but, we've had not such debate in this county, and it's long past time that we did.

 

Misguided ideas such as this that learning history is "living in fear of the past" are what has sunk nations into the most despotic dictatorships in history. We shouldn't fear the past. We should fear those who belittle education this way. They are the ones who facilitate totalitarianism

 

Ukraine may be game, and as dumb as the Russians are, the Ukrainians seem just a little dumber and Sadly, The Ukraine War Is Now Going Russia's Way.

The only reason the fighting is continuing is because of US money and material. If this war is so critical to the security of Europe, why aren't the European Nations matching the support being provided by the hard hit by inflation US taxpayer?

It's been clear for 6 months 'that Ukraine would not be able to keep Bakhmut. Once Russian troops advanced around the flanks of the city and took all the roads supporting the garrison under fire control, the chances of holding the city fell to almost zero. What Ukraine could and should have done is follow the Russian example at Kherson and withdraw to the next prepared defensive position in the vicinity of Kramatorsk or Slavyansk.'

'From those locations, the Ukrainians would again have had all the advantages: they would have had elaborately dug fighting positions, unrestricted fields of fire to attack oncoming Russian troops, and unhindered resupply routes to the rear. It would have been far more expensive for Russia to try and take those positions than it was to fight from point-blank range against the Ukrainians in Bakhmut, especially when the Russians could and did inflict severe blows on a daily basis to resupply the defenders.'

'As a result, Ukraine has lost literally tens of thousands of killed and wounded, along with enormous quantities of equipment and ammunition, in those four city fights (Severodonetsk, Lysychansk, Soledar, and Bakhmut). Based on a likely fire superiority of 10-to-1 on the Russian side, Ukraine no doubt suffered considerably more casualties in those fights than the Russians. But even if the cost were equal, Russia has millions more men from whom to draw more fighters and a major domestic industrial capacity to produce all the ammunition they may require.'

And the entire time that Ukraine has been losing these 4 cities in successive battles, we have been being assured by the pro-bribed Biden propaganda fake news, that they were rolling up 'victories.' And when the reality becomes undeniable that Ukraine is falling, they will demand the introduction of US troops. Do you support the introduction of US forces to keep Ukraine from falling to Russia? Yes or No? And then tell me again about how this isn't very similar to how we got sucked into the quagmire of Vietnam, or more recently, fighting house to house in Fallujah?

'Ukraine doesn’t have the personnel or industrial capacity to replace their lost men and equipment in comparison to the Russians. Moreover, Russia has been learning from its many tactical mistakes and evidence suggests they are improving tactically while simultaneously expanding their industrial capacity. Even bigger than the dearth of ammunition and equipment for Ukraine, however, is the number of trained and experienced personnel they’ve lost. Many of those skilled troops and leaders simply cannot be replaced in the span of mere months.'

'there is currently no likely path for Ukraine to achieve a military victory. Continuing to fight in that hope may perversely result in them losing even more territory.'

'Washington has already provided Ukraine the lion’s share of all military and financial aide including many of our most sophisticated armor, artillery, rockets, and missiles. Biden has even authorized the release of F-16 jets. The United States cannot – nor should it – commit to sending an equal amount of support for the next year of war, should it continue that long. Europe must be willing to make greater contributions to any future deliveries to Ukraine.'

'Only Kyiv can decide whether to keep fighting or seek the best-negotiated deal it can get. But the United States is obligated to ensure the security of our country and people above the desires of Kyiv.'

We're over $30T in debt and have an unsecured southern border that the Mexican Cartels are using to flood the US with criminals, deadly fentanyl, and sex trafficking of helpless young Central American women.

'In addition to burden-shifting physical support primarily to European states, means the U.S. must avoid the trap of agreeing to any type of security guarantee for Ukraine. History is too filled with examples of hasty agreements to end fighting that unwittingly lay the foundation for future conflicts. America must not put its own future safety at risk by agreeing to any form of security guarantee.'

'Washington must avoid the temptation to “double-down” on supporting a losing proposition and do whatever we need to bring this conflict to a rapid conclusion, preserving our future security to the maximum extent. Ignoring these realities could set up Ukraine for even greater losses – and could put our own security at unacceptable future risk.'

If Europe decides to fight on, we'll help, in proportion to what the various European nations are providing.

We've been in one damn war or another, if not several at once, for over 20 years. Enough is enough.

 

I'm glad you have self-reflected and a personal goal to work towards, only question now is, will you have the time to conquer it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Only off the sweat and tears of the American workers..

 

So inflation in the world only affects America?


Europe, as a percentage of their GDP, as economists measure aid, gave much more than the US


The U.S. ranks 21st, with aid committed to the tune of 0.4 percent of its GDP.

https://www.statista.com/chart/28489/ukrainian-military-humanitarian-and-financial-aid-donors/


Think Inflation Is Bad in the US? See What Other Countries ...


Mar 22, 2023 — The United States, with a 6% inflation rate, is the eighth lowest

https://www.investopedia.com/inflation-rates-us-and-the-world-7369986

WITHOUT FALSE PREMISES, DISTORTIONS AND LIES WHAT WOULD THE RIGHT WING EVER HAVE?

 

And that's the extent of arguments for the heavily in debt US taxpayer to continue funding this bloody conflict, that only continues because of our financial support.

I'd like everyone to notice what is missing, why the massively in debt, and inflation clobbered US taxpayer, should be funding one side of this foreign war between two corrupt Oligarchies, both of which have bribed the Bidens.

Questions the pro war folks never answer:

• We've been at war for over 20 years, without respite, sometimes in several wars at a time, why must we get into another one?
• What is the goal?
• How much will it likely cost?
• What are the risks?
• How long will it take?
• How will we know when we have accomplished that goal?
• Are we on a course to likely achieve that goal?
• If we fail to achieve that goal, how do we extract ourselves?
• Are we expected to fund rebuilding everything that is currently being destroyed?
• What will that cost?
• What do we get if we win?

I think we could bankrupt our nation supporting Zelensky only to have him sell out to a competing block of nations that offers him a dollar more. I noticed that you have offered nothing to suggest otherwise.

We need a full and complete Congressional Debate on our Ukraine Policy, followed by a recorded vote on seperate appropriations to accomplish that policy.

 

Got it, you'll repeat Putin's propoganda.

BK the US by helping Ukrain? With less than $80 billion in aide? LMAOROG

 

By pointing out that both sides are corrupt oligarchies that bribed the Bidens? We need a full and open debate in Congress on our Ukraine Policy followed by a recorded vote on a seperate appropriation to fund that policy.

We've been a war for over 20 years, sometimes in multiple wars at once. As soon as one winds down, we're rolling into another one. Why are you so eager to have the US so heavily involved in this war?

Why do you demand that the inflation busted US taxpayer carry the costs for this European War, rather than the European powers?

The US has an economy that is less than 10 times the size of France, yet, we have given 41 TIMES as much to the Ukraine war as France.

Too many on the Left that support funding this corrupt Ukrainian Oligarchy seem to view the US taxpayer as simply a peon to rape at will, and who they will name call as a 'Putin Puppet' if they object to the casual exploitation.

 

Because Ukraine is the current cash cow for laundering us taxpayer dollars back into the private family coffers of the elites?

 

First the US isn't at war, we are funding a nation invaded

Second, sure is a lot of BS thrown at Biden about everything from dementia to his''corruption' without a single truth being uttered by the right wing.

Of course he doesn't have a doctor saying he's the perfect specimen and might live to 200 if he had a different diet, lol

 

RIGHT WINGERS AND THEIR MYTHS

 

After we backed a coup to expel the elected government, and the government we installed started slaughtering ethnic Russians, and yes I know, Russians have a history of slaughtering ethnic Ukrainians. They are both corrupt oligarchies that have been killing each other for centuries. My question to you, and you continue to tap dance around it, is why is the US taxpayer in the middle of this, when we have been in war after war after war, and sometimes more than one at a time, for over 20 years?

He is corrupt and he is demented. Both Ukrainian and Russian Oligarchs have been bribing the Biden's and now it looks like our War Machine and the US taxpayer is being put at the disposal of Ukraine, which outbid Russian the Bribe The Biden's contest.

Here he is wandering aimless for two minutes:

 

Coupe huh? Weird how Putin's puppet ran to Russia right? lol

Biden corruption should be easy to prove? Why haven't they?

Once more, as a share of GDP the US is 21st in the world in aide to Ukraine, you know that nation Putin invaded?

DEMOCRACY, WHY DOES THE RIGHT WING HATE IT SO MUCH?

 

Fake news.

• Our economy is less than 10 times the size of France, yet, our Ukraine funding is 41 TIMES that of France.
  • If funding the war is so important to European security, why aren't European powers doing as much as the US?
• Our economy is 6 times the size of Germany, but, our funding of Ukraine is 10 times Germany's.
  • If funding the war is so important to European security, why aren't European powers doing as much as the US?
• Our economy is 12 times the size of Canada, but, we are giving Ukraine 18 times as much as Canada is.
• Our economy is 44 times the size of Sweden, but, we are giving 50 times as much aid.
  • If funding the war is so important to European security, why aren't European powers doing as much as the US?
• Our economy is 12 times the size of Italy, but, we are giving 35 times the amount of aid to Ukraine.
  • If funding the war is so important to European security, why aren't European powers doing as much as the US?

It looks like your claim is fake news. My observation that you view the Inflation Clobbered US taxpayer as a peon to be exploited for whatever war whims strike the mind of some of the bloody Left seems to be holding up rather well.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/

We've been in one war or another, and sometimes several at once, for over 20 years, if Europe has a problem, let Europe take the lead, and like a good neighbor, we'll chip in as appropriate, if Congress approves by recorded vote and as a separate appropriation.

 

I agree, I sourced mine, you just made crap up

Where do you think the money to fund EU Institutions come from, you know the second largest contibutor

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/

I AGREE THAT I WISH THE DUBYA/GOP DIDN'T TAKE US INTO WAR WITH IRAQ WHEN 65% OF DEMS IN CONGRESS VOTED AGAINST DUBYA'S WAR OF CHOICE

 

Speaking of making crap up, your claim is fake news. 58% of Senate Democrats voted FOR THE IRAQ WAR.

Sens. Baucus (D-MT), Bayh (D-IN), Biden (D-DE), Breaux (D-LA), Cantwell (D-WA), Carnahan (D-MO), Carper (D-DE), Cleland (D-GA), Clinton (D-NY), Daschle (D-SD), Dodd (D-CT), Dorgan (D-ND), Edwards (D-NC), Feinstein (D-CA), Harkin (D-IA), Hollings (D-SC), Johnson (D-SD), Kerry (D-MA), Kohl (D-WI), Landrieu (D-LA), Lieberman (D-CT), Lincoln (D-AR), Miller (D-GA), Nelson (D-FL), Nelson (D-NE), Reid (D-NV), Rockefeller (D-WV), Schumer (D-NY), and Torricelli (D-NJ).

 

Weird you have a comprehension issue, I said CONGRESS

215 (96.4%) of 223 Republican Representatives voted for the resolution. 81 (39.2%) of 208 Democratic Representatives voted for the resolution.

 

China has little chance of conquering Taiwan, easily or otherwise.

And, actually, the Ukraine conflict has shown the potency of our weapons. China has, if they are smart-and they are that, abandoned any thought of attacking Taiwan.

 

So you admit that 58% of the Senate Democrats voted for the ill considered war in Iraq.

Sens. Baucus (D-MT), Bayh (D-IN), Biden (D-DE), Breaux (D-LA), Cantwell (D-WA), Carnahan (D-MO), Carper (D-DE), Cleland (D-GA), Clinton (D-NY), Daschle (D-SD), Dodd (D-CT), Dorgan (D-ND), Edwards (D-NC), Feinstein (D-CA), Harkin (D-IA), Hollings (D-SC), Johnson (D-SD), Kerry (D-MA), Kohl (D-WI), Landrieu (D-LA), Lieberman (D-CT), Lincoln (D-AR), Miller (D-GA), Nelson (D-FL), Nelson (D-NE), Reid (D-NV), Rockefeller (D-WV), Schumer (D-NY), and Torricelli (D-NJ).

And you are so eager to declare the Iraq debacle a "republican war" when so many high profile Democrats HAVE A RECORDED VOTE ON RECORD COMMITTING THIS NATION TO THAT WAR.

That's exactly why we need to get all these Democrats who want to fund this war between two corrupt Oligarchies, both of which have bribe the Bidens, ON THE RECORD supporting this funding as a separate appropriation.

Look at your fear level over that concept. Why is that?

 

Taiwan and Ukraine are vastly different theaters. Ukraine is a land grid-lock war type of situation, whereas Taiwan will mostly be defended via the sea. The real issue as it pertains to Taiwan is Chinese proximity. If the Chinese were to launch an invasion, the Taiwanese would have to hold out for a significant amount of time before the US Pacific Fleet can engage.

That's of course, presuming it engages to begin with.

But there is the general concern about our weapons cache and it being depleted in the Ukrainian War, which since the fall of Bakmut has been confirmed by Western Sources, it's fair for everyone to say that Ukraine is now on the defensive, and the hopes of claiming Crimea have been dashed.

There's only two ways for this war to go: An continuing quagmire for many years, and this might be Washington's goal, but it is a goal only achievable with our arms most likely. Or, the eventual peace agreement and a new Ukrainian State that's probably been neutered, but that was Putin's stated goal from the start.

A third possibility, and what's most likely is that both scenarios occur: The quagmire lasts for many years, but the Russian oligarchy(who themselves are the natural successors to the Tsarist Russia) are more than willing to pay that price, and will achieve the neutered Ukrainian State. It's not whether or not the West loses this exchange, we will lose it. Just by how much.

The longer the quagmire goes on, the more Ukraine loses and the more expensive the war will become on our end.