"Atheism Produces Evil on Incredible Levels"

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Qchan, Apr 27, 2015.

  1. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    8,386
    Likes Received:
    1,704
    Trophy Points:
    113
    imo the propsition of this thread is muddled

    is atheism itself proposed as a cause
    and if so, what is the causative chain
    i could for example say that most evil leaders had dark hair or were men
    but that still leaves unclear the causitve connection

    also there is unclarity about whether religion somehow immunizes leaders against evil policy
    if so how
    and will any religion have that impact... including islam
     
  2. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    55,680
    Likes Received:
    30,353
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Against my better judgment, I’m going to address your sources in greater detail. The last time I did this, after reading a lengthy academic journal article, you abandoned the conversation completely without ever addressing it. I hope it doesn’t happen again.

    Let’s look at all of the atheist leaders mentioned in your sources:
    Mao – Communist
    Lenin – Communist
    Stalin – Communist
    Pol Pott – Communist
    Mengistu – Communist
    Bierut – Communist
    Choibalsan – Communist

    Am I missing anyone?

    All of the countries mentioned in your sources are Communist as well, with one possible exception mentioned entirely in passing – France during the Revolution. Yes, there were atheists involved there . . . as well as Christians and Deists.

    So tell me again how you aren’t just focusing on Communism and using it to generalize about modern atheists.
     
  3. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,082
    Likes Received:
    1,227
    Trophy Points:
    113

    And do you know what? Not everybody agrees with your website. There's far more to it than the insinuation noted in your quoted website. Read Steve Pinkers 'The better Angels of our nature: why violence has declined'. It's far too complicated to precis here. It has won widespread critical acclaim for its 'scope and originality', and the contentious debate it has aroused.
     
  4. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    17,005
    Likes Received:
    80
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Why not...?
    The Russian communism became like the old army game, ... let the other guy do the work, since we all get paid the same according to our needs.

    Monasteries existed for a 1000 years under a socialism which had every Christians actually contributing, which compares against the secular system seen in Russia.
     
  5. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    8,386
    Likes Received:
    1,704
    Trophy Points:
    113
    i have a slightly different take on all of this
    in my view, ideologues are the main cause of the evil we are discussing
    the ideology could i suppose be a atheism,
    but most commonly atheism is just an ideological appendage

    ideologues become obsessed with an idea
    they try to fit the entire world within that framework
    and are often ruthless in insuring conformity to the ideal

    but atheism is not that sort of idea
    it is not really about getting people to go along with a grand plan
    it is more of a negative idea.... god does not exist
    and there simply is not much to do to society based upon that non belief
    you are not instituting a grand social order
    no dictatorship of the proletariate
    no übermensch, or master race
    just turning your back on a previous organizing principle
    atheism is kind of innocuous
    really almost boring if you are not a theist whose world view is challenged
    but speaking as an atheist
    i can say that i regret my views seem distressing
    but any threat they may feel is illusory
    i do not hate theism, or theists
    i do not want to attack them
    i just choose not to participate in their religious convictions
    and would appreciate if they would likewise respect my right to have my own opinion on these matters
     
  6. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    17,005
    Likes Received:
    80
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Which of these worshiped God???
    The list seems to point to leaders and societies which KILLED millions of people just to get control, and then they all failed right after wards, didn't they???

    - - - Updated - - -

    These communist regimes actually OUTLAWED religions, though.
     
  7. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    55,680
    Likes Received:
    30,353
    Trophy Points:
    113
    None. Though using them to generalize about all people who do not worship God is intellectually and ethically irresponsible. There are of, of course, others who worshiped God and were guilty of bloodshed themselves. Leopold of Belgium comes to mind.

    Yes. Although the numbers provided conflate those directly killed with those who died from starvation due to flawed economic ideas.

    Yes, and I think we can all agree that was wrong, just as it would be wrong to outlaw irreligion.
     
  8. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    8,386
    Likes Received:
    1,704
    Trophy Points:
    113
    yes but again, atheism was a mere appendage on the larger ideology

    State atheism in the Soviet Union was known as gosateizm,[2] and was based on the ideology of Marxism–Leninism. As the founder of the Soviet state, V. I. Lenin, put it:

    Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class.[6]

    it is like saying republicans are against medical care for the poor,
    when really they are against big government including government medical care

    communists had a broad ideological agenda
    and religion did not fit in that agenda
    they were atheists as a logical consequence of their ideology
     
  9. whatukno

    whatukno New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2015
    Messages:
    1,249
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Doesn't sound like a God of unconditional love. In fact, it sounds like quite the petty and needy deity. Not really sure that's a good God you are worshiping there. To me, it kinda sounds evil.
     
  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,440
    Likes Received:
    13,376
    Trophy Points:
    113


    The fellow gets one thing right.

    There is no greater evil in historical record than 1000 years of horror propagated by the Catholic Church.

    Folks like Hitler and Pol Pot are minor in comparison as their reign lasted only a short period of time.

    The numerical comparison used by this fellow is that of a statistical idiot.

    Obviously the numbers of people killed over a population of 1 billion are going to be higher than when the same atrocities are committed over a population of 1 million.

    If we were talking percentages that this argument would at least have some validity in relation to "evil".

    There is also something to be said about the way people were killed. Gassing someone or shooting them in the head is orders of magnitude more humane that what the Church did.

    Killing someone quickly was not good enough for these folks... no no no. The torture chambers were located in the basements of churches and the Church leaders devised the most horrific and painful way to torture someone for as long as possible prior to killing them.

    This is a level of evil that at the highest level. http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican29.htm
     
  11. CausalityBreakdown

    CausalityBreakdown Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2014
    Messages:
    3,376
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Nah. I'm pretty sure there's no god, and if there is, he's probably a lunatic anyway.
     
  12. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,047
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Considering the factual numbers state that this is not true, I assume you're speaking through emotions.
     
  13. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,047
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0

    A few people complained about my source. I figured this was common knowledge, but apparently it's not. So, here's some better sources:
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/nov/4/20061104-103213-3757r/?page=all
    http://glipho.com/nick-thorne/was-the-20th-century-really-the-most-violent-in-human-history
    http://www.who.int/violence_injury_..._report/factsheets/en/collectiveviolfacts.pdf
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,440
    Likes Received:
    13,376
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What is not true ?
     
  15. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,047
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Here ya go:
    http://www.who.int/violence_injury_..._report/factsheets/en/collectiveviolfacts.pdf
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/nov/4/20061104-103213-3757r/?page=all


    - - - Updated - - -


    Because the source I quoted came from researchers who said, "Hey! Here's my hypothesis and look at the data I've collected to formulate my conclusion.", and you say, "Nuh uh!". So, how about you find sources that are contrary to mine, hmm?
     
  16. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,047
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0

    No. He's attacking me as if I said those things directly. He's not attacking the source, otherwise he'd have his own sources that are contrary to mine. Since he does not have that, it's safe to say he's just simply arguing against my source.
     
  17. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,047
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Yes. Please correct my false view. Offer me a source. Something you are refusing to do.


    - - - Updated - - -


    Here ya go:
    http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/world_report/factsheets/en/collectiveviolfacts.pdf
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/nov/4/20061104-103213-3757r/?page=all
     
  18. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,047
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Because you didn't read the source. You also haven't realized that you were arguing points created by researchers with empirical data that you have nothing to combat against. Responding to your points would be pointless.




    Well, I am blaming the rulers. Those rulers were all atheists, and they've killed millions upon millions of people.
     
  19. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    16,105
    Likes Received:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    0
    lol

    God already knows who is going to reject god before they were born, or even before the existence of the earth, what fun is damning people to hell for a victimless thought crime for all eternity if their fate is already predetermined? LOL

    I mean, Hitler is chilling in heaven drinking beer with Jesus, and your typically atheist goes to hell for all eternity for thinking a thought? I mean seriously, how (*)(*)(*)(*)ing stupid is that?

    - - - Updated - - -

    What atheist doctrine demands that atheists kill religious people?

    Be specific.

    Hitler acted out the Will of God by punishing those who killed His Son, why are you ignoring that?
     
  20. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    55,680
    Likes Received:
    30,353
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You didn't offer a source for your original claim, so you complain that I didn't offer one in my rebuttal? Your claim was that, in the 20th Century, most secular governments were Communist. Can you back that up?
     
  21. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,047
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0

    1) Hitler was an apostate. He didn't act on the "Will of God".

    2) Atheists do not hold humans to any intrinsic value. Most atheists believe that human beings are no more than biomechanical robots that operate due to electrical charges in the brain. They also believe that human existence only came about through a random process called natural selection, and that humans have no true purpose on this planet outside of what each human individually makes of themselves.

    Most atheists believe morality is subjective, and that right, wrong, good and evil are simply opinions based on social constructs and parental upbringing. There's nothing that's absolutely evil and there's nothing that's absolutely good. So, many atheists claim there no true right or wrong since it's all relative.

    Atheists also tend to be more angry, more depressed and way more suicidal than any group in the world.
    Source: https://winteryknight.wordpress.com...at-god-is-associated-with-poor-mental-health/
    Source 2: http://pagingdrgupta.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/01/anger-at-god-common-even-among-atheists/

    So, when it comes to atheists killing other people, if they know they can get away with it with no consequences, what could possibly stop them? Certainly not their morality.
     
  22. GraspingforPeace

    GraspingforPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2008
    Messages:
    14,162
    Likes Received:
    1,403
    Trophy Points:
    113
    He linked you to a source that DID combat your source, and then you brushed it off as a blog. Remember that? Even though YOUR sources were blogs? Why don't you admit that your hypocrisy and that blogs are acceptable sources?
     
  23. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    55,680
    Likes Received:
    30,353
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes. Their morality. Basic human compassion. And, you know . . . like most sane people, the fact that they probably don't have much desire to kill other people to begin with.
     
  24. Qchan

    Qchan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,047
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0

    The blog had no citation. No sources. No links. Nothing.

    Also, you complained about my source, so I provided more. I held my end of the bargain.
     
  25. GraspingforPeace

    GraspingforPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2008
    Messages:
    14,162
    Likes Received:
    1,403
    Trophy Points:
    113


    Yes, we did, we're tearing it a part right now.

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Wow. Hah. So, like I have constantly pointed out, you think that simply linking to a source makes your case impregnable. Why can't we "combat" against the methodology of the data collection or, I don't know, the fallacious conclusions reached by blog sources or others (you) that use his methodology to reach those conclusions? Oh, I know why, because your argument is fallacious and pure crap. You're out of your element.

    Yeah, so you say EVERY time your arguments are trounced. Why don't you go back to trying to read citations off of a Wikipedia page?

    And you still have yet to prove the causation between their atheism and their actions, which is what we are pointing that out to you.
     

Share This Page