Can a Christian lose their Salvation, or Are their former Christians (cont.)

The fact remains that not all are saved though all are under the grace of God.

Salvation is not by grace alone. It is by grace through faith. If it were grace alone the whole world would be saved.

Quantrill

 

Your simple question is flawed. Perhaps you need to rethink it.

Quantrill

 

This is a case of a doctrinal difference. I believe in the doctrine of election.

 

One can be "under grace" by existing in this world that is due to god's grace, but one may not be saved. Nonetheless, it is by grace that one is saved, through the grace of faith,--faith itself is a "gift from God."

You are mistaken to think that God's grace needs us to act in order to be saved--God's grace comes in many forms--and our response to God is another grace he allows us.

It's ALL grace.

 

...Might as well say you believe in a doctrine of man.

 

Again, no one is discounting grace. But faith is not grace. Its faith. And it is necessary to be saved.

By grace through faith. Grace alone doesn't save, as you agreed.

Quantrill

 

You have no faith without the grace of God giving it to you.

Rom.1

[1] Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God
[2] which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures,
[3] the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh
[4] and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
[5] through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,
[6] including yourselves who are called to belong to Jesus Christ;

If you would pull your head out of where the sun don't shine, you would see that we are in agreement, here. The distinction I am making, however, is that even faith is resultant from the grace of God.

Jeesh, you're impossible--even when you agree you are contrary and hard-nosed.

 

Salvation: like it or not, believe it or not..God says this is how it has to be...Your soul's destination is your call. I have highlighted a few that refers to a few posts I have seen here.
--------------------------------
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one"
Romans 3:10

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Romans 3:23

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 6:23

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;
and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Romans 10:9-10

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that,
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 5:8

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:16

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 3:3

"But as many as received him, to them gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"
John 1:12

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
Acts 4:12

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Romans 10:13

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."
Revelation 3:20


"For he says "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation."
2 Corinthians 6:2

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--


------------------------------------
Regarding the question in the title....you CAN lose salvation by denouncing Christ, God and the Holy Spirit.

And make no mistake...if you deny/denounce Christ, he WILL deny you...."Depart from me, for I never knew you"

 

You must know that's a weak argument trying to use the thief on the cross as proof that works are not required. If Dismas had been cut down from the cross and allowed to live, he would be expected to be baptized and live out his Christian conversion. I was responding to your post in which you made a statement that leaves no other possibility for saving faith than faith that is populated with good works. Now you're just being silly by making the opposite argument and using a single anecdote to buttress it.

 

I'm so glad you finally asked a clear question. No, nobody who categorically rejects the love and grace of God through Christ Jesus can be saved. Your question implies a volitional declination as in being presented with the gospel of Christ and refusing it. Such a person will face eternal judgement.

 

Its an important point. One could say its all of God. Ok. But its by grace through faith. ok. But, its all of God. Your saved by God. ok. But its the grace of God. ok. Yes, but its all of God. Shouldn't have to say its by grace. Should just be able to say its of God.

See? But grace does play a role in salvation. And faith plays a role in salvation. God does not save without His grace. Nor does He save without faith.

Quantrill

 

That wasn't the question. Your still dancing.

Do you believe people of other religions can be saved, who have never heard of Christ, and are being true to the religion or light they have?

This is a picture of one who is faithful to his relligion, never heard of Christ, and dies in his religion or light that he is faithful to. Will he be saved?

Quantrill

 

BTW--Dismas DID show evidence of faith--he defended our Lord in while he himself was being crucified. He spoke up on behalf of God. Is that not an act of faith in action? A BIG one?

 

OMG You're right! And foolish me has been wrong all along! Hallelujah! (Because we all know that Quantrill MUST be right in all things--even in things others aren't wrong about and he knows it!) Congratulations!

 

He might be.

GOD is sovereign. God decides. No one can say "yea," or "nay."
God is the Potter, He molds us for his own purposes, and God is Justice--if we are as God calls us to be, He has Mercy. I don't know if Pharaoh is in hell--could he be in heaven? He was hardened to show God's greatness--he did that according to God's will. An individual's salvation is worked out "in fear and trembling." It's not buying a ticket to an altar call and making a good show--it is so much deeper, it is SOUL deep, and only God knows our soul.



Paul describes this aspect of God in Romans 9

[13] As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
[14]
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
[15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.
[17] For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth."
[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
[19]
You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
[20] But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?"
[21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?
[22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,
[23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,
[24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?




So you want a one word answer to your question: "So, do you believe people of other religions can be saved even though they don't come to Christ? Quantrill"

The answer is "yes."

 

Which is what Nesoferax was saying. Which belief I have encountered among Catholics. Which I disagree with.

I don't discount the doctrine of election. But just like slavation is not only by Gods grace, neither is it only by His election. He who has chosen you to salvation, has also chosen the way you come into that salvation. By faith.

What your saying is a faithful muslim or buddhist will also be saved, if God has chosen him to be saved. I see no Scripture to indicate this. Do you?

Quantrill

 

It's not being faithful to "the faith" that is what God cares about--it is being faithful to doing what they are capable of knowing about God to the very best of the person that God created them to be. It's no excuse, but it is an assent to God's ways not being our ways, and an assent to God's sovereignty even exceeding religion.

The Scripture showing this was already cited. Furthermore, Jesus' encounter with the woman at the well shows that the sect of religion is not entirely determinate as to who has access to coming to know Jesus without understanding all that it entails. Faith before understanding...and God is faithful and just...

 

But thats not what the Bible says, that is what you say.

Jesus told the Samritan woman at the well, John 4:22 " Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."

Plus, you should realize that the Samaritan woman was believing, though misdirected, concerning the Messiah of the Jews. But as a Samaritan they had been worshipping at the wrong place due to the divisin of the 12 tribes.

John 4:25 " The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. "

So, you see. This Samaritian woman is not a picture of one who is of another religion and believing falsely. She was believing the promise of the Messiah as Scripture declared.

Again, I find no Scripture to support what you say, that a person can be of another religion and faith and because he is faithful to it then God counts him saved.

Quantrill

 

That isn't what I said. Perhaps you should read it again. I was careful to be very clear.

 

Luke.7
[50] And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Eph.2


1Tim.2
[15] Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.





Does it say what specific "faith" is referred to in any of these?

Or does it just say...faith...?



Further--see the Sermon on the Mount...any specific requirements there for a specific formalized formula for buying one's ticket into heaven?

 

Rom 9[25] As indeed he says in Hose'a, "Those who were not my people
I will call `my people,'
and her who was not beloved
I will call `my beloved.'"
[26] "And in the very place where it was said to them, `You are not my
people,'
they will be called `sons of the living God.'"

 

This explains the Catholic position. It references other works where it is biblically detailed (such as in Lumen Gentium) and references Romans 1:
The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334



ROMANS 1[25]
Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
[26] So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
[27] Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.
[28] For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical.
[29] He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. His praise is not from men but from God.

 

I have been clear also. I asked you before, ' do you believe people of other religions can be saved even though they don't come to Christ? ' You replied in post #90, yes.

And in #92, you say the same thing when you say these people in these false religions are 'being faithful to doing what they are capeable of knowing about God'.

And to this I disagree. And there is no Scripture to support this.

Quantrill

 

You keep saying "being faithful to their religion" saves them, and I specifically said "NO" to that.

You asked if people of other faiths might be saved--"can be saved"--of course they "CAN"--nothing is impossible for God! He;'s God--He can do whatever he wants--He is the Potter, we are the clay.

 

See Romans 1