Can a Christian lose their Salvation, or Are their former Christians (cont.)

I repent and ask forgiveness when I have sinned. Further--I do not lie. I HAVE lied in my past, but I don't bother with that foolishness and haven't since I was quite young.

 

You need to give your evidence where I have misrepresented you or the Catholic Church. You keep saying I have twisted your words, and I have twisted nothing. I see no place where I have misrepresented the Catholic Church.

Its easy to level a charge at someone, but you should at least give your evidencel.

Quantrill

 

A lie is a lie. Even a teeny tiny lie is still a lie and it shares the aspects of you being a false witness.

 

Point being, you did .... Therefore the shoe fits.

 

You've done it a couple of times! Each time I pointed it out and made a grand effort to correct you. That's how I know at this point it is purposeful. Here's the most recent...


After you AGAIN claimed falsely (after being corrected numerous times) that I believed faith to a RELIGION other than Christianity saves and I pointed out...

...I tell you this...

To make sure there is no misunderstanding of what I mean by "Church," I link you to a source defining the nature of Church....

Then you go on to suggest (falsley AGAIN--despite specific evidence otherwise), Catholic Faith is in the Church rather than in God--you do this by you FALSE comparison to yourself and your beliefs...

To which I patiently clarify AGAIN in the hope that it is IGNORANCE rather than EVIL intent:

Yet.....AGAIN you twist words to say that my claim suggested that the Church MADE writings inspired, ....

when I CLEARLY said the the Church (as defined in the link I gave) wrote the texts by Divine Inspiration... well...here's what ACTUALLY said again...

The BIBLE is from Church Tradition--The authority of the Bible as "inspired texts" comes out of CHURCH TRADITION because there were all kinds of Christians writing texts about Jesus, but not all are deemed "inspired." The authority of the Church--given to the Church by Jesus himself (so ultimately, the authority is Jesus' through the Church) is what gives you the Bible that you use. The Holy Spirit inspired the authors of those texts, but ALSO inspires the Church leadership in keeping the faith accurate to the teachings of Jesus. One way that can be seen in in the books codified in the Bible you now deem your only guide. The Bible is the product of the Holy Spirit working in the Church--the Sacred Traditions came FIRST, the texts were gathered together and analyzed by the Church NEXT, and the texts were authoritatively codified as "inspired." When you accept the authoritative definition of what books written by early Christians are "Holy" and what books are rejected, you accept the Divine Inspiration given to the leaders of the Catholic Church in determining that. By doing so, you submit to the AUTHORITY of the Church as given by Jesus--because through God, THE CHURCH put your Bible together.



Stop bearing false witness against Christ's Church.




.

 

Am I to take it that you don't know the answer to the question that I asked you in post #211? Because it’s been a while since I asked that question and you are yet to respond.

 

Im not bearing false witness against the Roman Church. I was responding to what you said. I was answering your questions or responding to 'your' own statements or answers.

I disagree. The Bible is not a product of Church tradition. First of all, the Old Testament was decided on by the Jews. But, the Bible is a product of God inspiring men to write down His Word. And the people of God recognizing that inspiration.

Christ promised in the Bible, to give the Holy Spirit to the disciples and that they through that Spirit would also verify that which was of God. John 14:26 This is not Tradition. This is the Word of God. And so it occurred. The writings of the New Testament were given by God. And the Spirit of God in those who wrote and those who recieved these writings established that these were of God. It was not just those who wrote, but the Christians who listened and heard these read. In fact the most important and concrete evidence is that they were recieved by the people of God. Not from some dictate of the Church. The Church played a role in that the Church are the Christians.

Quantrill

 

Well...that's just factually incorrect. The Jews do not have codified texts.


I'm done playing your stupid game, but I will correct your errors and false statements.

This is some weird rationalizing of yours. Vague--so as not to have to admit you're wrong.

 

Its not rationalization. When you study the way the NT books of the Bible were brought into the canon there were certain things that could be evident which contributed to their proof. Authorship. Content. But the dominant factor was whether or not they carried the authority of God in them. Which was recognized by the people of God.

In other words, the Spirit of God in those writings resonated with the Spirit of God in the people of God.

Quantrill

 

You mean...the Church?

Quantrill--even in the Bible the hierarchal structure of the Church is recorded--the "people of God" are clearly the Church with designated leaders to uphold the true teaching. Why fight it? The Bible attests to it, history attests to it--heck, COMMON SENSE attest to a need of it. Lastly, the MESS that is known as PROTESTANTISM attests to it--how many different interpretations do we have now? Are you starting the corner store Church of Quantrill soon? c'mon...your own words tell that I'm right on this--rather, that the Catholic Church is right on this.

So what about those Christians in whom The Gospel of Thomas (or Mary, or Judas, or Philip) "resonated"--they just don't count as the people of God?

 

Yes, I mean the Church, the Christians, the people of God. As I said before I don't discount the role that the Church played in recognizing the writings which were inspired by God. But that recognition had been going on long before an 'official' canon was produced.

And, that official placing inspired books into a canon did not make the Church an authority equal to the Scriptures. Nor did it make the leaders of any local group of believers infallible. Nor did it make any one leader infallible. That alone which is infallible is the Word of God. And that alone is where the authority lies.

You designate some as Christians which may not be Christians. Do you think Gnostics are Christians? Those books, some I haven't heard of, were never universally accepted by the people of God, the Church.

Quantrill

 

You might want to study the canonical councils. It may prove very educational. There was certainly no clarity when it came to what writings were inspired or not. Some books barely made it into the canon, others were barely kept out. This is why we still have those disputing the gnostic writings that were excluded, because they had a "side" in the controversy that included many sincere Christians.

Actually the Church was imbued with authority by Christ himself centuries before the canon. "Teach the nations" Jesus told them, conveying to the world what they were taught by Jesus himself. Apostolic authority began with Christ himself. He didn't choose everyone, he chose twelve, saying, "Did I not choose you twelve?" And then he commissioned them with specific authorities, to bind and to loose, to forgive sins, to baptize, and to teach. Jesus did not leave the early Church leaderless.

Nor did he subject those leaders to a book. Some of the earliest changes that the councils made was to do away with circumcision and Sabbath worship, instead allocating Sunday as the day of weekly worship. Both of these actions are clearly "unbiblical" in accord to the Old Testament writings they had available and even today, the Seventh Day Adventists claim they were wrong to change the Sabbath. But the apostles weren't acting on the "authority of scripture" they were acting on the authority given to them directly by Christ. Nor was there any inkling in the early church that the authority given to them by Jesus should be abdicated to a book. They might have even found such a notion an opportunity for scornful laughter.



Nor did it make the leaders of any local group of believers infallible. Nor did it make any one leader infallible. That alone which is infallible is the Word of God. And that alone is where the authority lies.

You designate some as Christians which may not be Christians. Do you think Gnostics are Christians? Those books, some I haven't heard of, were never universally accepted by the people of God, the Church.

Quantrill[/QUOTE]