So you thought that sex was binary with a strict division between male and female

Who said LGBTQ people are not human?

 

I cannot see how irreversible surgery on a child to make its still-developing body conform to a certain gender is ever advisable, even if there's only a 2% of regret down the road. Are there actually doctors cutting off children's penises because of this dysphoria? Who is the youngest?

 

Surgery does not happen to a child. Any frequency of such is akin to that of late term abortions; pretty damn rare, if even that frequent. The child argument is a red herring as far as surgery goes.

 

Oooooh! Way too many. Let’s start with MTG

Given that I have to agree with those who state she looks not unlike a shaved Yeti the position that “There are only two genders is patently wrong and denying the existence of those who are on the spectrum

 

And by legislating against it are in fact hamstringing those with the very real issue of “Intersex”. Look if there are doctors doing the wrong thing then there should be a process to deal with that. We have charged surgeons with manslaughter in the past. If the medical officers involved in this are acting unethically then there is a strong probability they are acting unethically in a range of issues.

 

Where is that happening? I agree it WAS happening to intersex children as BABIES. Babies with ambiguous genitalia were often “reassigned” at birth under the completely mistaken idea that gender is fluid and will conform to whatever psychological influences are applied. Sorry that theory has been completely debunked

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

 

Well, I call 18 a child, and that's the age in Germany and I think The Netherlands. In the USA, I don't know. But to those screaming about the right of kids to have the hormones supps and blockers, what is the argument against surgery for a 15 year old?

 

She wasn't saying they aren't human, and your remark about her appearance is unfortunate.

But isn't all this drama and militancy about transgenderism a tad faddish? Who here was jumping up and down about their rights to play in girls' sports even 5 years ago?

 

It does happen in Germany, at least (eighteen).

Anyway, what's wrong with trans surgery on a child if puberty blockers are just great?

 

There is no such thing as a trans female.

At best you have a female impersonator with a surgically mutilated vestige of a penis who has taken hormones to falsely grow breast.

Nope sorry... Still not an actual woman or anything remotely female.

 

I've got an honest question: if gender dysphoria is a disorder, and I think we all agree that it is (if not, why the need for puberty blockers and surgery?), why can't the belief that that "the only answer is transitioning" also be a disorder, or maybe just a mistake, or alternatively just an unnatural and BAD idea?

 

I find it unusual how the same people who will sit here and tell you that a man can magically become a woman will also admit that they would not have sex with a "trans woman"...... Proving the whole damn thing is nothing but a charade

 

....

 

I am going to disagree with you on this, at least to a point. Money didn't prove anything, except that maybe his methods were not the ones to work. There is nothing to show that gender is anything but innate, but that doesn't mean that it can't be changed. It only means that the method has not been found yet. Now, with that I will never say that anyone should be forced to undergo any procedure per se. If we ever discovered a method that can align the gender with the sex, similar to how we currently align the sex to the gender (within the bounds that we are not really changing sex), then the person now has a better set of choices. Either way, Money didn't prove anything. He merely provided evidence towards, and sadly, did so in a very unethical manner.

 

In the US 18 is a legal adult. What is adult in Germany? Regardless, even in Germany I can't see 18 as a child. Minor still, sure. We have many in the US that would like to see the legal adulthood age raised. Personally I would like to see a single such age; license, voting, military, automatic emancipation from parents, drinking, etc.

As for your question here, 15 is going to be a fine line, and I doubt that you would find any one lower to be mature enough to make such a decision. But 16 and 17, at least with the presumption of 18 as adult, have the possibility of being that mature. After all, maturity is not a switch, and one is suddenly mature the minute they reach the birthday of their majority.

 

Puberty blockers are a temporary thing. A stop gap if you will. Surgery is permanent. While there can be side effects (name a drug that doesn't have them), they may be the best solution. The thing is, it needs to be considered on a case by case basis. For some youngsters, it will help. Others it will not. And doctors have to be careful, because the use can cause problems for surgical transition later, if surgical transition is needed. But puberty blockers can give a person a chance to make a final decision prior to reaching the age where surgery would be allowed.

 

Not only science, nature too:

 

First, let's clear up what seems to be a misconception. Transitioning is not limited to the surgeries. While transitioning is the usual treatment (at this time) for GD, transitioning can be as simple as presenting to alleviate the GD. In other cases, hormones or hormone blocker therapy is all that is needed. The next level after that is top surgery, usually for transmen to remove breasts. Finally, it that is not sufficient, then the full SRS occurs. Transitioning is the only answer at this time. No other treatment has been developed that alleviates GD without causing other damages. Further, there is a 44% reduction in suicidal ideation when transitioning occurs.

 

So now I prove you wrong. I dated a trans woman for a while. And there are a few more in my local circles that I would not hesitate to engage with, should they ever come available (they are currently in relationships, some with cis men no less). This is not unusual. But there is also the further consideration that acknowledging a trans woman's biological sex, especially when it comes to sexual attraction, in no way invalidates her gender as a woman.

 

I respect the last sentence, as it is (finally) responsive to my question, though I do wonder if there isn't some other way to reduce suicidal ideation anong the gender dysphoric.

But my question itself made clear that I included puberty blocking -- that is, something other than surgeries -- in my description of transitioning. So I don't see what my "misconception" is.

I'm deeply dismayed at the suggestion that surgically removing breasts may be "insufficient." Good God, removing breasts as part of cancer therapy is one thing, but if they are fully functioning and healthy, cutting them off strikes me as monstrous.

What do we do with dysphoric males? We give them chemicals and then, "if that is not sufficient," we cut off their perfectly functioning genitals? The chems are not sufficient for what?

 

I get that, but what is inadvisable to you about prohibiting transition surgery on a 17 year old boy who has "known" he was a woman all his life? I know it's the law; is it a good law? Why?

 

What does "her gender as a woman" mean?

And serious question, have we already had a thread called "What is a Woman?"

I can't improve on "adult human female."

 

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that you have stated that you are a homosexual?

I'm referring to heterosexual men. They prefer their women with no penis.... Oddly enough.

 

Part of it is separating out the causes. Simply having GD can be a source of suicidal ideation, but it is often not the only source, if it is one at all. The harassment and rejection and bullying also contribute to the ideation and these do not necessarily stop with transitioning. So while the stress that leads to suicide might lessen, that doesn't mean that it dropped significantly if even more harassment occurs because of the transitioning.

Your wording still made it seem as if you were under the impression that all transitioning includes at least puberty blockers. Even among minors, children or not, puberty blockers are not always what is needed. That's why individual evaluation of each case is needed, to determine what is needed for that case.

To alleviate the GD. That is the whole purpose of transitioning. Think of it as similar to diabetes. Diabetes is not something that we can cure. We can treat it, but not cure it, at least at this time. Sometimes a proper diet is all that is needed to treat the condition. Or it might need to go to the other end and regular injections of insulin and/or other medications is needed. That is why I noted that a certain level of treatment might not be sufficient to treat the GD condition.

 

I cannot watch the OP video at the moment, but my own interpretation of this topic is really simple. Maybe after I watch the video my perception will change.

Gender and sexuality aren't the same thing. Gender is normally, almost always, binary; if you are born with a pecker, you're male. If you're born with a cooter, you're female. If you're somehow born with both, or neither, you have a birth defect, and are an anomaly.

Sexuality, on the other hand is a spectrum, like you say. Sometimes males feel feminine, sometimes females feel masculine. The degree of these feelings seem to range from slight to overpowering. I know mildly effeminate heterosexual males, and I know flamboyant homosexual males. They have the same affliction, only to different points on the spectrum. There are as many various sexualities as there are stars in the sky, but there are only two genders.

I don't think these feelings are a choice, most often, but I suppose they can be. These anomalies are not normal, but they are pretty common. What is important is to understand and accept that varying degrees of gender dysphoria is a fairly common thing in humans, and that the people who have it should do what makes them happy. After all, the "pursuit of happiness" is enumerated as an unalienable right in our founding documents, bestowed upon all by their creator.