We broke all records of cases, deaths, and hospitalizations today

Masks were quite ineffective in preventing the spread of the disease - I said right after the mask order came - watch .. they will make masks mandatory and cases will rise.

This is not only due to the Mask however - it is not like Masks do nothing .. but the idea that the general public using them properly is possible is the first bad assumption.

Masks have to be combined with other restrictions such as "no social gatherings" - you stay in your house sans going out for groceries. When you lock down - you must lock down hard - otherwise you just postpone the inevitable - and draw out the lockdown longer.

Masks give a false sense of security in numerous other ways - and we can get into that if you like- but the idea that - "Just wear a mask" is going to solve this problem - in of itself - is simply not rational.

If the lockdown is half way - wear a mask -and try to keep gatherings to less than 15 people in your house - or some such thing - "Not going to Happen" - if you are in a room with others -- even if all were to wear masks and of course folks don't for a thanksgiving supper with 10 guests in addition to the residents - you are sharing the same air .. in a closed space. and one needs not be a virologist to figure this out..

The problem with the US approach is that we tried to do it half way - and that will not work.

 

I assume you mean 2019?

 

Yeh I see your point. I care where these novel viruses come from because if there is human behavior responsible in any way for the antigenic shifts or recombinations that allow them to become human pathogens, I’d like to be able to reduce the likelihood of it happening in the future.

 

No one is saying ''just wear a mask'' that is a strawman.
There have been plenty of posts decrying superspreader events like Sturgis, Trump rallies and mass protests.
If you ask me I'd say it is the stubborn insistence that personal rights outweigh any public health measures that is the main cause of America's high bodycount. As an outsider it looks like a petulant child screaming ''you can't tell me what to do''.
Not that my country is immune to the same stupidity.
Countries where compliance is seen as a weakness are having the biggest problems and those to whom conformity is the norm are doing the best.

 

Tons of people were/are saying this - repeatedly .. over and over again - especially in the media. So your claim is false.

Some truth to the above I think .. As stated in previous post - you either do full lock-down - or you might as well do nothing.. a "Half Lock down" is the worst thing to do.

 

Sure, you are fighting cultural norms there though. Proximity with livestock is the main cause of these problems. Countries in Asia where it is far more common to buy your meat from wet markets or where there is a much larger incidence of people rearing their own poultry in close proximity to their homes. Often poorer nations with fewer refrigerators or even a lack of reliable electricity.

 

Really?
Most if not all of the advice I've seen in the media has said ''wash your hands, practice social distancing and where that is difficult wear a mask''. Lots of advice to travel only when essential, people told to stay at home. Contrary to what many people think, getting your hair cut or your nails done is not essential. Neither is taking a flight across the country to celebrate Thanksgiving with loved ones.
The biggest enemy is not China or even Trump, it is utter stupidity and insistence on personal rights.
It would be like households during the blitz insisting on their rights to keep their lights on during an air raid.

 

What a load of bs.

Trump himself and his whole family caught the virus.

Blame the Democrats....

 

well - CNN would regularly cry - Just wear a mask - over and over and over .. obviously you practice the other stuff.

the rest of our post mirrors my comments saying half measures are not effective.

 

Really? They are saying ''just wear a mask and don't bother with the other measures'' or are they saying ''just wear a mask you stupid anti-maskers''?

 

Agree on the “right marks worn correctly “ part for sure. In the summer I was content to take the meta analysis of non randomized controlled data up to March (I believe that was the cut off) as the best available evidence. Today I have some doubts it’s the best evidence.

I’m chasing cows through the cedar trees today so will hold off on details until I get a chance to re-read the meta analysis and make sure I’m as correct as possible in my response.

 

I agree 100%. I laugh at people who tell poor third world countries to change their practices in the absence of modern food preservation options. Very good points.

 

The Latter to the point of false sense of security - what they were not doing is stating "The mask wont work if we do not have a "Total Lockdown" - no visiting with friends and relatives .. you stay in your house and go out only if necessary for groceries and such .. preferably having them delivered where possible.

ZAT VAZ Point heir Montegriffo - so yes .. in a way they were saying not to bother with other measures via the "Sin of Omission".

 

Not one credible person has told you that. This is a lie the anti-science crowd screes to convince everyone that masks don't work.

It's never been masks OR social distancing. It's been masks + social distancing + good hygiene + limiting your time in crowds + staying home as much as possible.... WILL slow the spread. It's never been a guarantee that you won't get it if you do those things. It reduces the risk.

Who promised you seat belts will save your life 100%? Nobody. Who promised you air bags would save your life 100%? Nobody. These are aids, that greatly increase the chance you won't die in a crash.

Why is this so incredibly difficult for people to understand? Willful ignorance, at this point, is the only reason.

 

Agreed. Which is why I've been advocating for an educational campaign forever and ever. And yes, someone gets a flimsy cloth mask, one layer, and then gets close to others feeling over-confident, that backfires. But like Curious Always said, although there hasn't been a good educational campaign, the available advice was never "wear a mask, any mask, then toss all other precautions off the window."

And by the way, one thing the advice and guidelines never paid sufficient attention too, is eye protection. To be safer, people should wear masks AND goggles but pretty much nobody does (outside of healthcare settings).

I do, including in the community, and people look at me like I'm from outer space.

 

Yes, sorry; a typo. 2019 is right.

 

With bogus tests come bogus numbers.

The OP is merely the gnashing of teeth and weeping, meant to reward and accommodate more of the same, pure propaganda.

 

You are foaming at the mouth - Told me what ? There are tons of credible people out there saying "Just wear a mask" - and they are not the anti science crowd .. not that you would know anything about science.

You finish with "What is so difficult to understand" - but have not said anything that I do not understand -

Tell me .. what is it that I do not understand oh wise one.

 

Exactly - thank God I don't have to work all day with a mask .. some folks get one mask a day - so you have a big sneeze - all day long you will wiping that stuff all over the place .. and in general - mask or no mask - of folks are occupying the same enclosed space they are sharing "germs". Move the mask a little and a poof of virus particles escape - and apparently can hang around in the air for some time. .. God forbid taking the mask off and putting back on .. which is going to happen all the time in the real world..

If you do this in an enclosed space -where other people are present - Or will be present in the near future - you are spreading the virus.

 

I have not heard one credible authority say that all we need to do is wear a mask.

Yes, people are wearing them incorrectly. This is largely due to a lack of a united message and education on the importance of wearing a mask correctly.

The WHO said yesterday that if you don't want to wear it properly, don't even bother. The WHO! "If you are too stupid to learn how, there's no point."

Yeah.

 

Quit building strawmen ... I never said they did.

 

*ahem*

 

What irritates me is when anti-maskers say that masks are useless because people touch their masks. My reply tends to be, well don't touch the mask! Anti-maskers also seem to ignore that they have just acknowledged that masks do help reduce risk of infection else there would be no harm of touching a mask if it did not trap any of the virus.

As for the getting close to each other, I've observed people do that whether masked or unmasked but at least the masked groups has a little protection unlike the unmasked groups. As for social distancing I remember when I first saw the odd person masked in the early days I used to give them a wide berth and I still think this occurs now but not as much as mask users have become more frequently encountered; in no way do I get closer to masked people than unmasked people - I tend to keep as large a distance as possible from people I don't know

 

Correct. Ideally a facemask would be replaced every two hours, or anytime it is soiled or wet. Ideally the person would doff the mask in an isolated place with nobody else around, touching only the rubber bands but not touching either surface of the mask, removing the bottom band first in a circular motion over the head and letting it hang down, then removing the upper band away from the body. For ear loop masks, the two ear loops would be touched and displaced simultaneously with the mask being removed from the face in one movement, with both arms moving away from the face. Then, these masks would be discarded, or in case of shortage, stored in paper bags (without touching the surface) labeled with the day of the week, and people would not touch them until seven days later when all virus is dead. Only masks that are not soiled, damaged, or wet should be stored this way, for reuse. Again, reuse is not ideal but given shortages, we need to do as best as we can. People should sanitize their hands with warm water and soap (20 seconds) or alcohol-based gels (at least 60%, best 70%) before and after donning and doffing the masks. Once the mask is on and once adjustments to achieve a good seal are done, people should not touch the masks until a time when, with clean hands, the above techniques would be employed to remove it.

While N95 masks with head bands (and even better, N100 masks with adjustable elastic bands) are ideal to achieve a good seal (provided that the person has no facial hair and the model and size of the mask fits well the person's facial shape), other facemasks by definition do not provide an appropriate seal. Remediation for the seal can be achieved in various ways: with three interlaced rubber bands size #33 in which the center one goes all around the mouth/nose and the other two go behind the ears like ear loops; with rubber braces made from neoprene sheets that go around the the nose/mouth with a head band that goes behind the head, and with adhesive tapes that are anti-allergenic like Micropore. It is also important to know that only facemasks graded as ASTM levels 2 or 3 provide adequate protection against aerosol rich in tiny SARS-CoV-2 (average diameter 0.1 micro).

With a good mask in place and well-sealed, the person then should don a medical grade pair of googles with silicone seal and no vents.

Who does it like this? Nobody, except trained healthcare professionals (me included), and even those are known for lowering their guards and doing it incorrectly.

Anyone doing it like the above - and these devices are materials ARE available to the general public, now, although they are slowly becoming scarce again - will have the best protection masks can deliver. However, one needs to know that NO mask, not even N100s, are 100% protective against the SARS-CoV-2 specially in aerosol form.

So, together with masks and goggles, it is essential to continue to use all other precautions, such as at least 6ft of social distance if not more (aerosol transmission can reach farther than 6ft), time limits spent in the presence of others (the shorter, the better), hand hygiene before touching the face and after touching any potentially contaminated surface, Clorox wipes for high traffic surfaces like door knobs (good luck finding Clorox wipes), preference for the outdoors, and if indoor activities are inevitable, limits in how many people are in a room, open windows, fans, and when available, HEPA air purifiers and UV lights.

While my wife and I follow the above precautions to the letter, including, having portable air purifiers and portable UV lights for certain situations (for example, the portable UV light can be used to sterilize keyboards, mice, cell phone screens, and telephones), and while SO FAR these precautions have kept us both healthy despite working in a hospital that treats patients with Covid-19, not even in my hospital people follow all of the above; let alone in the community.

If people WERE able to follow all of the above, the scale of this pandemic would be much diminished. But the above is utopic. I even tried to teach the head of our Infections Control Department about the cheap and easy 3-rubber-band technique to enhance the seal of surgical facemasks, and she shrugged her shoulders and said that it's too complicated (although it isn't), and didn't want to implement it. I mean, a box of 75 #33 rubber bands costs $5 bucks and can protect 25 employees - probably cheaper if ordered in bulk. Learning how to do it takes all of 30 seconds. Still, she didn't want to bother.

Fortunately we do have enough N95 masks for our staff now, and every single staff member involved in direct patient care or who needs to enter any patient care area even when not doing direct care (such as a clerk delivering a piece of paper or a janitor cleaning the nursing station) was issued medical-grade goggles. We have PAPR units too, to be used when treating the sickest patients with the riskiest procedures, like someone needing intubation. We have rooms with negative air pressure. Masks are mandatory for every non-direct care worker as well (in their case, facemasks will do). We also performed N95 fit tests in ALL employees involved in direct care, a massive task for our Employee Clinic given that we are a fairly big hospital, but they worked non-stop and did it. We reduced our entry points to only two, and we have a crew stationed there, with full PPE including gowns, doing contactless temperature checks and a questionnaire every day for every employee, visitor, or contractor entering the building (visitors are otherwise forbidden beyond our lobby area; only employees, patients, and the rare contractors can enter the inside of the hospital, past that point). Front desk workers have N95s and goggles, and talk to the public behind plexiglass barriers. Visitors coming to the front desk lobby aren't admitted without masks - we have a supply available for those who come in without having them. Our patients talk to their loved ones through iPads we made available to them, using Google Meet.

So my hospital is doing better than most. Still, we've had staff members with Covid-19, including some fatalities. Most of the employee infections happened when we didn't have all the PPE that we now have (showing, again, that the right mask worn the right way does protect the wearer). We contracted with an outside business that inspects, cleans and sterilizes N95 masks for reuse. There's attrition because some are deemed damaged or too soiled and are discarded but with this reuse program we've been able - SO FAR - to have N95s for every direct care worker. The CEO of my hospital is doing a superb job, and I must say, not very helped by the authorities... he needed to scramble on his own to secure enough PPE and reuse programs.

 

Sure for the most part - that other part being that transmission of the virus is due to people getting together in small to medium size groups - just like normal .. and when you visit someone's home - you do not wear a mask - not that it would matter much - for reasons previously discussed.

Transmission while masked up at the Grocery store is very low .. its all those other times - when socializing with others. This is what I mean by a "half lockdown" .. it has got to be all or you might as well do nothing - not just masks and "social distancing" when you go out. That is not where this thing is spreading .. it is having a bunch of friends over .. one person has it - no one knows because the rate of asymptomatics is really high.

On the cruse ship was 95% - in a meat packing plant was 88% .. so lets go 9 out of 10 for this scenario .. say you have 5 friends over - and one has and you all get infected - but there is a 50-50 chance that none of you know - asymptomatic.

would you care to run the numbers and try to figure out how many these 5 will infect before someone tests positive - going from gathering to gathering .. and yes .. eventually some will test positive .. but by that time - Pandora is out of the box and long gone.

You have to stop this mode of transmission to stop the spread - which half measures will not do.