Can a Christian lose their Salvation, or Are their former Christians (cont.)

Matt. 23

[23] "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.
[24] You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
[25] "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of extortion and rapacity.
[26] You blind Pharisee! first cleanse the inside of the cup and of the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
[27] "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
[28] So you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
[29] "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
[30] saying, `If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
[31] Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
[32] Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.
[33] You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

 

You've made yourself clear and don't need to repeat yourself. That's what you believe and I accept that. But you deviate from what Protestants believe in regard to the ungospelled people. This isn't what Protestants believe.

 

1Cor. is talking to the believer about ministry and the gifts of the Spirit.

Concerning God's will as to the entrance for one into heaven or the kindgdom, yes that is His only will. And it was entrance into the kingdom that you brought up in Matthew. Belief on Jesus Christ. Pharaoah did God's will in his actions toward Israel. Pertaining to salvation, Pharaoah didn't believe and therefore didn't do that will of God.

John 3:15-18 " That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life....that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life...He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John 8:24 "...for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in you sins."

We are not comparing grace to law. We are discussing being saved outside of Jesus Christ. You want to say all salvation is in Jesus. But then you want to say a person doesn't have to believe in Jesus to be saved. But Scripture disagrees with you.

Quantrill

 

What's your point?

Quantrill

 

There is no 'Protestant doctrine'. So you cannot say, that is not what Protestants believe.

I am Protestant, and that is what I believe. Because that is what the Scripture says. And the Protestants I know believe the same. Any Protestants who don't, I disagree with also.

Quantrill

 

You conveniently compartmentalize Scripture to suit your doctrine. And then broadly interpret other parts, again, to suit your doctine. This is Quantrill's will--not God's Will.

See comment above. How is it that you believe you know the mind and will of God? You don't. Humble yourself.

...."And this is the judgement":

YOU STOP AT vs18 BECAUSE THE VERY NEXT VERSE DISAGREES WITH YOU!!!

Verse 19-21 TELLS you that the LIGHT is what matters.

...that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20] For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
[21] But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.


Seriously...stop abusing scripture to personally send people to hell.

To use a move from YOUR playbook. He's talking to the Jews. HOWEVER, the scripture here ACTUALLY TELLS us that...


[22] Then said the Jews, "Will he kill himself, since he says, `Where I am going, you cannot come'?"
[23] He said to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
[24] I told you that you would die in your sins, for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I am he."

Further on, it explains why those Jews had no excuse to mitigate their fault for not knowing Jesus--Jesus said they would know "I AM." That's God recognizing what the state of the soul of those persons are--not Quantrill determining that all have to believe in Jesus and know Him as the Incarnation of God.

[28] So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he,

I submit to the sovereignty of God. I did NOT say a person doesn't have to believe in Jesus to be saved; I said that it is possible for a person who doesn't "come to Christ" may be saved. I submit to the sovereignty of God. His ways are not our ways.

You are incorrect, and Scripture disagrees with Quantill's doctrine.

Quantrill's doctrine misses the forest for all the trees in the way--it a cherry forest where Quantrill's cherry picking is rampant.

 

You did not miss my point, you pharisee.

 

What church? What denomination?

 

Again, 1Cor. 13 is speaking to Christians about ministry and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Not entrance into salvation or eternal life. Yes this is my way. I try and stay to the subject that the Scriptures you speak of are speaking to.

Well, we were addressing entrance into the kingdom of God. You brought up the verses in Matt. where Jesus said I never knew you. Again, we are talking about 'entrance into the kingdom'. Entrance is based on doing the will of the Father. That 'will' concerning 'entrance' is clearly stated in John 6:40 " And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:..." Thus I can say I know the mind of God as the Scripture declares it.

John 3:19-21 does not disagree with anything I have said. It agrees perfectly. Those who love the truth come to the light, and that light is Jesus Christ. Again, it proves my point.

Yes Jesus is talking to the Jews and explaining how they will die in their sins unless they believe in Him. And that was what you asked for, scripture that says you must believe on Jesus Christ to be saved. And Christ is clear. If you don't believe on Him, you will die in your sins. No salvation.

Believing on Jesus Christ, and coming to Christ are the same. You can't come to Christ if you don't believe on Him. Your speaking double tongued now.

Quantrill

 

I see.

Quantrill

 

Not important.

Quantrill

 

It's obvious it is the Church of the Gospel According to Quantrill

 

Do you see "seeth?" To whom is He talking when he says "seeth?" Do you "seeth?"

"And" is a conjunction that is inclusive. It relates the "believeth" to the "seeth."

What about those that don't "seeth?" The will of the Father stated in the verse you are citing is SPECIFIC to those that "seeth the Son."

Perhaps you "readeth" badly because you "readeth" into Scripture that which is not there.

Sure, the Light is Jesus Christ. I agree--but it also says that "he who does what is true comes to the light." It doesn't say that the only "true"ness is believing in Jesus. Being "true" is EXACTLY what I have described when explaining that sincerely seeking God to the very best of one's ability regardless of one's awareness of the Gospel of Jesus will please the Good Shepard who will NOT abandon a wayward sheep.

Yeah--I know that's what you are saying, and I am saying God is not a pharisee as you are. Jesus rebuked the legalistic pharisees. You are a modern day pharisee.

It's not me--it's your false and hateful doctrine of the Church of the Gospel According to Quantrill.

 

If they don't 'see' then they won't believe. Indeed they need to see Christ in order to believe. God opens the eyes for those to see who Jesus is.

Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

Just like Jesus did with the disciples on the Emmaus road. Luke 24:31 " And their eyes were opened, and they knew him;..."

Just like we are also again told in John 12:38-40 " That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled,...to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. "

Those that don't see Christ are not saved. Do you 'see'?

Again, whoever is doing what is true is going to come to Christ. To the light. If he doesn't come to Christ, he is not saved. If he is doing true, he will come to Christ.

Again, believing on Jesus Christ and coming to Christ is not a teaching of the Pharisees.

Quantrill

 

"Readeth" again. John 6:40 " And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:..

Who is he addressing. "Everyone that seeth the Son." That means he's NOT addressing those that don't "seeth the Son." That means if one knows Jesus, one submits and believes. If one doesn't know Him, this verse is not addressed to that person.

The irony here is you are being very literal. Are you as literal with the rest of John 6?

Is Moses in Hell? Abraham? Jacob? The prophets of the OT? This is the logic of your doctrine. Answer directly, yes or no, --is Abraham in Hell?

THEY did not "see Jesus"--they did not "come to Jesus"

They are already there--BEING Christlike. "The kingdom of God is in the midst of you."

Being a whited sepulchre is Pharisaical. Your legalism is Pharisaical.

 

I just showed you in John 3:3, Luke 24:31, and John 12:38-40, that if you don't see, you don't believe, and are not saved. If you see, you believe. That means if you don't see, you don't believe.

Which means you are under condemnation. John 3:18 " ...he that believeth not is condemned already..."

As I said, those that don't see Christ are not saved.

No, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Moses are in heaven with the Lord. They believed that which God gave them concerning the promise of Christ to come. That is not belief in a false religion. That is true belief given by God.

Quantrill

 

That contradicts your claim about salvation. They did not "come to Christ." He wasn't here yet.

You are simply wrong and the "logic" of your doctrine FAILS.

Rather...maybe you're just making stuff up. I think it's the latter.

 

How is that NOT EXACTLY living according to the light one is given, without "coming to know Christ?"



You just proved my perspective correct.

Thanks!

 

We were being specific about being Christian and Christianity. In the Old Testament, which is of God also, faith is directed toward the promised Christ to come of Gen. 3:15. Which faith Adam and Eve exercised. Gen. 3:20 and 4:1.

And it was this faith that Abraham exercised. Gen. 15:5-6, Gal. 3:16.

So, you see. The faith in the Old Testament was still directed toward the Christ to come. And it was a faith given by God. This does not contridict anything I have said about faith in Christ. There is no one today in any religion who is saved unless they have believed on Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

Quantrill

 

Then you don't know what your point is. The Old Testament is part of the Bible. Its part of the revelation of God. It is not contridictory to the New Testament. Its not a false religion opposed to Christianity.

You were saying a person can be saved in a false religion who never comes to Christ.

Quantrill

 

You are incrementally modifying your rigid claims.

 

Romans 3--Paul cites how God can even use false to bring Truth--and you should not ever condemn truth.

[7] But if through my falsehood God's truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?


Furthermore...

James 2
[16] Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
[17] Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
[18] Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.
[19] Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger,
[20] for the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God.
[21] Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
[22] But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
[23] For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror;
[24] for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.
[25] But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.
[26] If any one thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this man's religion is vain.
[27] Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.





I think this is good advice about modern-day Pharisees...

2Tim.3
[1] But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of stress. [2] For men will be lovers of self, ....proud, arrogant, ...implacable,...haters of good, [4] ... swollen with conceit,...[5] holding the form of religion but denying the power of it. Avoid such people.

 

I have modified nothing. The faith of the believer in Christ is the same faith of the believer of the Old Testament. It is of God, in the Bible.

We are talking about false religions, remember?

There was only one way to be saved in the days of the Old Testament. And there is only one way to be saved in the days of the Church age.

No one in any false religion,in either of those time periods would be saved unless they exercised the faith towards the promised Seed to come who is Christ, or the faith in Christ.

No one is saved unless they come to Christ. I have modified nothing.

Quantrill

 

Paul explained the reason for the question he raises just prior to that verse. Romans 3:5 " But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? "

See? Your lie and unrighteousness demonstrate the righteousness of God. Which brings jugement, not salvation.

There is no salvation outside of faith in Christ.

Your other Bible references are good verses, but have no bearing on what we are speaking of.

Quantrill

 

"The Bible" did not exist. God, is greater than the Scripture--Read Matt 12 where the Pharisees were hasseling Jesus for not "following the rules"
"something greater...is here."
You are so wrapped up in the rules and won't even see it!
Do you think the Pharisees thought they were wrong? --I don't. I think their love of self and the control they felt they had in being so adherent to "the law" that they failed to see what is greater--or rather WHO is greater.

I'm talking about ANYBODY--anyone at all--even you--provided you do your VERY BEST to come to know God as he has revealed himself to all of mankind, and you in particular. God knows all our hearts--He knows how He made us--He knows what we are capable of--he calls us to our own perfection as He made us.

Where in the OT does it say ANYONE was "saved"--the beliefs of the OT aren't about salvation in the sense of bringing one to heaven at all. Jews don't even believe in hell or heaven. Some may believe in "the world to come," and "sheol" but it is not heaven and hell and related at all to Salvation. That's why the way Jesus did the "christ thing" was so very foreign to their belief system and they rejected Him.

You just make this stuff up. Cite this claim. There is no "saved" in the OT.

Just as people of today, who's fault for not knowing Christ fully is mitigated by the circumstances of their existence--as judged by God alone--so too were the peoples of the OT who could not know Christ in the full sense of "coming to Christ." The people of the OT and the people today are still people who face circumstances beyond their control who either strive toward the Truth, or turn away from it. IN THAT God judges. "To whom much is given, much is expected."
Luke 12
[45] But if that servant says to himself, `My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
[46] the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful.
[47] And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.
[48] But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

Then the patriarchs of the OT are not "saved"--because there was no concept of "salvation" in terms of bringing one to heaven in the OT and Christ had not yet died for their sin. Your doctrine is a failure.