Can a Christian lose their Salvation, or Are their former Christians (cont.)

No, we were talking about people who never come to Christ in other religions. But thats fine. We can talk about everyone, period. Because no one is saved unless they exercise the true faith given by God. That faith in the Old Testament was centered on the Seed to come, Christ. That same faith in the New Testament is centered on Jesus Christ.

The Word of God existed in the Old Testament days. And it came to prophets. And it was true. And we have the record of it in the Old Testament.

Habakkuk 2:4 " Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith."

Romans 1:16-17 " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ" for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith? as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Genesis 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

No, I don't make it up. Its the teaching of the Bible.

Quantrill

 

Quantrill, I see you have taken to quoting my entire post in a lump and failing to respond to most of it. You've done this a few times now...

Regardless of this dance you are doing to allow OT patriarchs into heaven while denying others, the fact remains that the Patriarchs did not "come to Christ". Whether or not they were in the right line of faith for the coming of Christ, they were not "born again of water and spirit" as your doctrine demands. You can backpedal all you like...twist and maneuver...move the goalpost and equivocate...but your legalistic, Pharisaical doctrine of no mercy is not of God--it is of Quantrill.



Here's another example from the OT of a person who is not "of the faith" who becomes so blessed that she falls in line of heritage of Christ because she acts "in faith" but not in understanding of Christ to come: Rahab the prostitute.


People can still be like Rahab in this day and age.


Another? Ruth the Moabite.


.

 

Dance? Im showing you that Abraham was saved by faith. That Paul identified this faith as the same faith the Christian exercises. That both Old testament and New Testament believers are saved by faith.

Oh, people can still by like Rahab and Ruth in these days? And just what do you mean that to be? Not salvation?

Quantrill

 

So...Rahab and Ruth are in hell, in your opinion?

 

No, not at all. Im trying to understand where you are coming from now. You said before that belief in the Old Testament was not about going to heaven. I always said it was.

So, Im trying to understand what you are now saying.

Quantrill

 

The Hebrew faith does not have heaven/hell as Christian faith believes. "Salvation" in the OT was about the preservation of a peoples--NOT individuals being "saved" by a benevolent God. They DID NOT know the messiah as a personal "savior"--they saw him as a savior to the peoples. The salvation was not attaining righteousness (although that was proper to render on to God and therefore was beneficial to your peoples), but rather salvation was restoration of the "nation".

Please show me where it says that Abraham is "saved" in the sense that modern Christians use the word "saved."

 

I already did show you. Romans 1:16-17, Romans 4:1-3, and Gen. 15:6.

Are you saying Abraham didn't go to heaven? Scriptures said he believed God and it was 'counted' unto him for righteousness. Salvation.

Quantrill

 

Romans is NT, and Gen. 15:6 says nothing about Salvation.

Do you not think God could "count righteousness" for people today? Many religions "believe God" but do not know him fully. Abraham did not know Christ--nor did he conceive of heaven or hell from which he needed to be "saved." Of course I believe that Abraham is in heaven--just as I believe others can be righteous in God's eyes despite ignorance of the One True God. God is not "legalistic"--MAN is...(and Quantrill's doctrine is).

 

Oh, you now believe Abraham is in heaven. Yet you said the Old Testament says nothing about salvation as going to heaven. How did he get there?

Well, I use both Old and New Testaments.

Paul is clear in Romans 1:16-17 that salvation is a product of faith and that faith is the same as that of the Old Testament.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

"For therein is the righteousness of God reveled from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. " This is a quote from Habakkuk. Old Testament.

And Paul is clear that Abraham was saved because of the faith he exercised which is recorded in Gen. 15:6, which Paul quotes.

Romans 4:3 "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

Of course God counts people righteouss today. Those that place faith in Jesus Christ. Just like Abraham placed faith in God.

As Paul says, Rom 4:21-24 "And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

" And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

"Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

"But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; "

Did you note that? "if we believe" There is no salvation without faith in Christ.

Quantrill

 

This has been the point of confusion I've noticed in this exchange. Abraham was saved through Jesus Christ as noted in Hebrews 11 where he, along with many OT saints, "saw the promises from afar" and "embraced them and confessed they were strangers and pilgrims on earth."

Quantrill keeps couching the debate as a deliberate rejection of the gospel of Christ even if ungospelled people have never had that opportunity to make an informed decision on the gospel. What the Church teaches and most Protestants also believe is that all who enter heaven do so through the Son, as Jesus said, "no one comes to the Father except through Me." But there is a chasm between the Protestant notion that contexts all salvation as a conscious decision made in this life and the reality that some never come to that level of revelation but still find opportunity to respond to God's grace as best they can understand it and come to a full understanding of who Jesus is only after death.

When I mentioned Jesus's reference to forgiveness in the next age, it went right over Quantrill's head as it often does for most Protestants. They think all such transactions must occur during this life and that it's "unfair" that some are saved not in this life, but the next, by coming to full realization of the very God with whom they had an unwitting relationship during their life evidenced by their response to grace.

God is the source of all goodness and the pieties by which we can love our neighbor and even our enemies, seek justice for the poor and disadvantaged, and be generous with our time, talent, and treasure come from God. Those who are ungospelled but still rich in good works are responding to God's grace and have a relationship with Him. The blindness sets in because for Protestants, there is an unbreachable wall of separation between works and salvation to the point where works become meaningless as a conduit of salvation. To them, somebody who is prolific in acts of love, charity, humility, and grace have merited nothing in regards to salvation because people can't "work their way into heaven."

So because all salvation transactions are informed decisions based in this life, they have a hard time grasping the idea that God uses all avenues possible to save as many as possible. God is to them almost like a cruel gatekeeper looking for any technicality by which to cast as many into hell as possible. Nothing could be further from the truth. But as you and I know, Protestants do not possess the "fullness of truth" having severed themselves from communion with Christ's one holy, catholic, and apostolic church and also the rich treasury of the Sacred Tradition. Quantrill and those like him operate from a fraction of the truth. This is the cause of their confusion.

 

As usual...Preachin' to the choir, saintmichaeldefendthem! Well said.

 

For heaven's sake! (Pun intended!).

It's not my doctrine that condemns a man to hell for not knowing Christ--it's YOURS.

I think people can be "saved" despite their ignorance.

Salvation (in the Christian sense) is INDEED a product of the grace of faith. The question you need to confront is: just what is "faith?"

You seem to think it's this legalistic set of rules one must adhere to in order to be saved. I think it is submission to the will of God as He acts in our life.

And what "faith" is that? Is it that he "came to Christ?"

Did Abraham know Jesus?

There was no messianic prophesy at the time of Abraham...how did he have "faith in Christ?" (Please note--you are again moving the goalpost--it's no longer "coming to know Christ" or "faith in Jesus" --now it's simply "faith in Christ" which I believe you are equivocating with faith in the hope of Christ to come...)

 

No, your wrong. Abraham exercised faith when he left Ur of the Chaldees for the promised land but that is not the point where God counted him righteous.

Abraham was saved because he exercised faith in the true God. That faith was directed specifically at the promise of a seed to come. Gen.15:6 It was not just a general faith in God.

And your wrong as well about salvation. There are plenty of good people, as far as mans goodness goes, that will not enter heaven. Because they have never come to Christ.

Quantrill

 

Your the one that said there was no 'salvation' in the sense of going to heaven found in the Old Testament. So, how did Abraham get there?

I have explained to you already. That the faith of Abraham was directed to the promise of his having a seed at his impossible old age. And that seed we are told in Gal.3:16 was Christ. The point is that Abraham exercised the faith that God would require to be saved as it resulted in his being declared righteous by God.

And it is this same faith that the Christian exercises towards Jesus Christ who is the Seed promised to Abraham. The faith is the same, as it is from the true God toward the Son, Jesus Christ.

As is specifically stated in Romans 4:23-24 " Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;"

Quantrill

 

Because even if he didn't know it, it is. Just as is the case with many people of faith.

Why do you think God couldn't/wouldn't do the same for someone else?

Huh? Abraham did not know this, though. Yes--he had faith, but he did not know of the Messiah to come.

What specifically do you think that is saying? As you like to note, he is addressing Christians. Yes--People exposed to the truth and capable of coming to know Jesus need to come to Christ or God will not justify their faith. But it is not EXCLUSIVE of non-Christians and their faith. God alone judges and justifies.

 

Oh, I see. You know Abraham went to heaven because "it is". Just because you think he went there. Again, how do you know Abraham is in heaven?

God counts any righteous who exercise faith in Him. That same faith that Abraham exercised. That same faith today is the faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 4:23-24 shows that the faith that results in the imputation of righteousness, which Abraham exercised, is now faith in Christ.

"But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead."

It is exclusive. Faith in any other religion is a false faith. Abrahams faith was faith toward the true God. The Christians faith is faith towards the true God.

Of course you don't have to believe it just because it says so. You can believe whatever you like. Like Abraham is in heaven just because, 'it is'.

Quantrill

 

Are you suggesting heaven doesn't exist? Abraham didn't believe in heaven--if Abraham is in heaven, it is despite his knowing about it.

Did Abraham know Jesus? Did Abraham, know of the Messiah to come? Did Abraham believe in personal salvation?

The answer is no to all of those. If you believe Abraham is in heaven, faith is a submission to the God of the universe whether one knows that God as he actually is or not. And that God is Faithful and Just.

Why do you think that can't happen for other people submitting to the will of God, though ignorant of His true nature?

How did Abraham know that? How do YOU know that? How does ANYONE know that?

I do believe that the Christian faith is toward the true God, but just as easily, I could have been born in a Communist country or extreme poverty and kept from knowledge of God by laws of men or struggles of survival, and yet I live a life of principle and beatitude--am I (*)(*)(*)(*)ed for ignorance? Abraham wasn't.

Perhaps I am influenced by cultural forces that impede my ability to come to know Jesus--such as the case of Gandhi--where oppression perpetrated against my people by a supposed "Christian" country makes it impossible for me to accept that oppressors teaching/religion. Am I (*)(*)(*)(*)ed for exercising faith to a limited degree due to the sin of others? The good thief wasn't. The Canaanite woman wasn't.

[22] Matt. 15
And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and cried, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely possessed by a demon."
[23] But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying after us."
[24] He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
[25] But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me."
[26] And he answered, "It is not fair to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
[27] She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
[28] Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.




Your God has no mercy, Quantrill--and we KNOW God is Merciful--so it's not God who has no mercy--it is YOUR doctrine.

 

Now you say 'if Abraham is in heaven'. You don't know? Abraham was counted righteous by God because of his faith in what God promised. But, you don't know, correct?

Abraham exercised the true faith in God. Did he live when Jesus lived on earth? No. But he exercised the true faith in God. That faith is the same that is exercised when one believes on Christ today. Romans 4:24 "But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;"

"if we believe" Which means if you don't believe, then righteousness is not imputed to you.

People in other religions are not submitting to the will of God. They are being disobedient to God.

I know it because Scripture says it. You don't know it because you don't believe the Scriptures.

The thief on the cross recognized and believed in Christ. " And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom"

The woman exercised faith in Christ.

Quantrill

 

Well--actually I do believe he can be definitively be said to be in heaven based upon the authority of the power given to my Church directly from Jesus. So yes--Abraham is in heaven.

Couldn't that "true faith" also be exercised by peoples today who do not know Christ in the Christian faith? Why not?

It is a letter to the Roman CHRISTIANS--of COURSE Christians must have faith in Christ.

Gandhi...was Gandhi being "disobedient to God" in his exercise of faith?

As noted before, you have a tendancy to "twist" scripture to suit a particular viewpoint that is unChrist-like.

He did say that--is that a developed faith that recognizes Jesus as the Son of God? Not really.

Yes--she did. Did she know that he was the Christ?

I see you keep avoiding the sticky questions.

 

Very good. You believe what you do based on what the Church says. I believe what the Bible says. Hence the disagreement.

That faith today is faith in Jesus Christ. Rom.4:23-24 The invitation is to anyone to believe that. And only that produces salvation.

Rom.4 describes how a man is justified before God. Romans is written to Christians, yes. But here it is describing the entrance into slavation. So, we as Christians know how it works. But of course, you don't need it as you have the Church.

Yes, Gandhi was disobedient to God if Gandhi didn't believe on Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour. And Gandhi would be in hell right now if that is true. And I haven't ever heard that he came to Christ, so he would be in hell.

Im not avoiding any 'sticky' questions. I said what the Scripture said. The woman exercised faith in Christ to do what she needed. And Christ answered that faith. If she had turned to one of the Baal worshippers to heal her, would Christ have responded and healed her?

Quantirll

 

But you see...you TOO believe what "the Church says" by believing what the Bible says. You just don't admit it (hense the disagreement).

That is justice, in your opinion? That is merciful? really?

Despite her ignorance?

So...it's just the luck of the draw?

I don't know what happens at the particular judgement of an individual's soul. I hope that she would be save in her authentic faith, though misplaced due to ignorance. I would not hope hell on anyone. Christ calls all to Himself, and I trust in his mercy.

 

Your speaking double tongued again. Out both sides of your mouth. I do not base what I believe on what the Church says. I base it on the Bible. You base it on the Church. Not the Bible. Which you pointed out when you said you believe what you do based on the authority of the Church.

Yes, its justice. Really.

She knew enough to come to Christ.

Why is it luck of the draw when one comes to Christ by faith and He responds. If anyone else had wanted healing they could come to Christ.

I didn't ask you what happens to certain individuals soul. I asked if the woman went to a Baal priest or worshipper to recieve healing, would Christ have healed her?

It doesn't matter if you hope hell on anyone or not. Your hope doesn't change a thing. Being obedient to the revelation of God does. Being disobedient doesn't.

Christ calls all to Himself, so are all saved?

Quantrill

 

Where do you think the Bible comes from? There are TONS of "scripture" written in the early centuries...who the heck do you think discerned the "holy scriptures" from the "heretical?"

The Church.

So even though you don't admit it--you also base your beliefs on the authority of the Church--through the Church's compiling and codifying the holy scriptures. There's no way around it, unless you weigh equally the other "scriptures" about Jesus with the scriptures contained in the collection of books known as The Holy Bible.

How so? Please...explain the "justice" of that.

He wasn't exactly easy to get in touch with... I mean, some guys even had to bust through a ceiling and lower their buddy down to Jesus to get an audience!

What does supernatural healing recorded in the Bible have to do with salvation? He may have, if it was brought to his attention by loved ones of her's. He healed that woman's daughter--not her--the daughter didn't "come to Christ"--the mother did.

Not so! The scriptures even tell you that!

Jas.5

[16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

You are disobedient in attempting to force God and his mercy into a rigid little box of your own making. For what reason you do this, I don't know. Perhaps it makes you feel superior and powerful; perhaps it is pride and the fear of being wrong and having to humble yourself before God...HAVE NO FEAR! He is a merciful God--not the legalistic tyrant you seem to think He is.

No--God calls and we answer. It is up to GOD ALONE to determine if our answer was sincere.

 

Pay attention please. You believe what you do based on what the Church tells you to believe. I don't. I believe what I do based only on the Bible. You can say the two are the same but they are not. It is the major difference between Catholics and Protestants.

Its justice because Jesus Christ paid for sin. And the invitation is to all.

Big deal. The point is there was healing when one came to Christ. Just like there is salvation when one comes to Christ. Not outside of Christ.

Why are you asking me what the womans healing has to do with salvation? Your the one who brought her up as an example. The woman came to Christ for healing. Sure, Christ is going to heal a woman going to a Baal priest? Even though he first provoked this woman in calling her a dog, which resulted in her faith being further sustained. You can believe that if you like. I don't.

Pay attention please. James 5 is talking about healing. You were talking about hope pertaining to hell. Again, your hope in that is immaterial. You can hope all day long that those who don't come to Christ don't go to hell, but the Bible says differently.

The 'box' you describe was written by God.

Please. Your the one who claimed Christ called. Now you say no, God calls. Make up your mind please. I just responded to your statement. So, you said Christ called all, but now God calls. And you hope none go to hell. But it won't matter, because many will. And it will be those who are not in Christ. Who have not believed on Him.

Quantrill

 

It's you who needs to pay attention. Where did the Holy Bible come from? History is your friend.

Christ IS God. They are the same Divine Being.

Do you not know Jesus the Christ as God? That is heretical.